[cacruden]

I don't have much experience in that area, other than I generally don't like travelling to Scarborough (subway or not).

Here are some questions that a consultant may or may not be able to answer:
- What are the projected ridership numbers that the line would have to handle (differs by transit mode)? i.e. growth prospects
- What percentage are travelling locally?
- What percentage travel to the business core (down the Yonge line)?
- What is the life expectancy of each of these options before they have to be replaced with a higher capacity transit option?
- What is the maximum travel time for the average passenger before losing them to other options?
- If the subway is built, what changes will have to be made to surface routes to feed the subway? What are the costs of these changes?
- If a larger percentage are flowing to the city centre (financial district), would it be better to feed the GO line (or express alternative)? [i.e. how much more will the Yonge line have to handle if ridership goes up?]

 

[scarberiankhatru]

The subway is still the best option. In my opinion, it's the only option. Well, a de facto grade-separated LRT from STC to Kennedy that continues along Eglinton, connecting with the DRL would also be another option But even then I wouldn't take it since a subway would be faster.

""I think today's meeting is really the death of the Scarborough subway and the birth of massive public transit in Scarborough. And that, for me, is incredibly exciting,""

I'm glad I won't be living in Scarborough when transit goes all to hell.

Are the streetcars going to run on the RT's elevated tracks? That still leaves the transfer and I doubt they can board and run as fast as the RT. Is the Eglinton LRT going to go to Eglinton station? SOS Redux? The $1 billion figure is pulled right out de Baeremaeker's ass - the only way it'll be that low is if the purchase of all the new streetcars coincides exactly with what have been a purchase of new buses. LRTs in Scarborough will only work if the downtown relief line is built and if they are nothing like the Spadina ROW.

"It isn't even really the TTC doing this study, it's the consultant they hired and right from the beginning he has stated that money simply isn't there for a subway."

Soberman gave us the RT...why are we still listening to him?

"It takes some people 1/2hr (and in some places more) just to reach the Town Centre. This needs to improve."

They're going to STC so that they can get on the RT and go downtown...instead of building a transit system focused around a dozen loud residents of Morningside Heights, why not get GO to serve them. A Midtown GO line would cut their commute downtown by at least 2/3. Buses in the far east could funnel into the Oshawa line GO stations, and express/rocket routes could also get them to STC - or anywhere else - in half the time.

I wonder if Bas Balkissoon would have been able to help push the subway agenda through Council had he still been around...his ward is the largest in the city (at least until the next census). His provincial connections don't mean much when the province wants to build the Vaughan extension. I guess the Sheppard east extension is also now dead and buried.

"The subway can always be built at any point in the future. LRT now is a much much better choice."

That line of reasoning got us the RT and it's getting us a streetcar now...could a monorail be next in 2040? I lose faith in this city when it acts this retarded.

 

[dashingdan]

In my opinion, although I don't know Scarborough well, is that the subway should be extended to SCC, and end there. And from there, have a network of LRTs. Of course, the Sheppard line should go to SCC as well.

In regards to Vaughan extension versus Scarborough, well, anyone with half a brain can see which SHOULD be the priority, but politics always gets in the way of rationality. It boggles the mind and really pisses me off. Scarborough gets shafted to build a subway in Sorbara's riding (somewhat needed) and beyond to Vaughan (totally unneeded).

 

[Suicidal Gingerbread Man]

Put simply, the population of SCC can support a subway easily. Normally we need to deal with politicians proposing grand projects where the demand isn't there (ex. VCC Spadina extension), but in this case, the demand is clearly there, and the extension of the subway system to Scarborough is logical.

I will always be adamantly opposed to the "we'll make do" approach to transit system expansion.

 

[esplanade guy]

If I lived in Scarbourgh, I'd be mad as hell! I am a dedicated subway rider who refuses to use buses and will take streetcars for leisure activities like going to the beaches. Nothing beats a subway for comfort, speed and reliability. The subway is the right option. Too bad we can't afford lines along Eglinton and and ALL of Sheppard.

 

[boiler2000]

If no subway is built to SCC, they better expect huge loads on the line between Kennedy and SCC, unless everything gets re-aligned to use Kennedy as the big transit hub. Right now, SCC is a huge hub, for TTC as well as GO, and even intercity bus lines.

If financially feasible, it seems to me (and I am definitely not an expert of any kind) that a subway extension to SCC, plus LRT lines radiating out from there, would make the most sense.

 

[unimaginative2]

Put simply, the population of SCC can support a subway easily. Normally we need to deal with politicians proposing grand projects where the demand isn't there (ex. VCC Spadina extension), but in this case, the demand is clearly there, and the extension of the subway system to Scarborough is logical.

You're exactly right. When you combine the RT ridership with the parallel bus ridership, the east-west bus ridership that would switch to subway because of its advantages over the RT, and the latent ridership that would take a subway but not the RT, you easily have a very respectable subway ridership figure. I wouldn't be surprised if it were over 20,000 in the peak hour. That's an extremely high figure, comparable to the North Yonge line.

 

[wyliepoon]

I've tended to be a fence-sitter on the LRT vs. subway issue for the SRT, and I still am. That means as a TTC rider from Scarborough, I am quite comfortable with either the subway or LRT replacement.

First of all, I don't buy the observation that the SRT is overcrowded, or that it is carrying passengers above capacity. I think the SRT only appears to be overcrowded because people tend to crowd toward certain cars on the trains. For example, most people use the escalator to get from the subway to the RT platform at Kennedy. If you know the design of Kennedy station, you will notice that the escalator directs them to the first car of the train, which is usually the most packed. I, on the other hand, use the stairs to get to the RT, and I almost always sit in the last car, which tends to be the least packed. During off-peak hours, I sometimes have the entire last car all to myself for half the trip to Scarborough Centre.

I think replacing the SRT with LRT works. A streetcar's capacity (CLRV or ALRV) is comparable to about 2 SRT cars? (I hope someone can provide exact capacity numbers for me) During off-peak hours, a frequent (more frequent than the existing SRT during off-peak) LRT service by CLRV-like vehicles would be adequate. During peak hours trains consisting of coupled streetcars (they can't couple, but I'm sure TTC can find a way to do that) would also do the job.

I do acknowledge that there is a downside to the LRT replacement. I don't know if the pro-LRT councillors are aware of this, but the LRT replacement is not the same as plucking a few existing TTC streetcars from downtown and plopping them down on the SRT. The gauge of the SRT is not the same as the streetcar, and the platform heights are also different. Either the SRT line will have to be rebuilt, or TTC will have to get new LRT vehicles that can service the high platforms of the SRT, and possibly also provide low-floor service on future extensions to Scarborough streets (something like the Buffalo Metro Rail trains). All this will probably cost less than the subway, but more than what the average person (or councillor) who is unfamilar with the TTC would expect.

While I'm happy to see that the LRT plan calls for extensions into other parts of Scarborough, I think it will be long in the future when these extensions become reality. I really hope that my overcrowded McCowan North bus route will become the first to be replaced by an LRT.

*****

There's one more replacement option for the SRT that nobody has mentioned. I suggested in the thread about GO's proposal to buy the O-Trains that GO should run the O-Trains to Scarborough Centre via a link between the Stouffville Line and the SRT. I still think that's a viable option. If Toronto city councillors and the TTC are acting stupid over deciding what to do with the SRT, why not hand over the line to GO Transit?

 

[spmarshall]

If Toronto city councillors and the TTC are acting stupid over deciding what to do with the SRT, why not hand over the line to GO Transit?

Trust me, you do not want the cabbageheads at GO Transit running local transit in Scarborough.

The LRT idea might work, but it would have to run in branches before getting to STC. An Eglinton East branch makes sense, and make Kennedy more of a hub, divering some from SCC all together. I also think this is one place where the subway extension will work immediately as well, unlike the line to the Vaughan Middle of Nowhere Centre.

 

[unimaginative2]

There's definitely a case for a Talent-style line up the Stouffville corridor with a branch to STC. It could run at subway frequencies from Kennedy to STC, at about 20 minute frequencies up to Markham, and at whatever frequency needed (hourly, usually) to connect with the Lakeshore GO trains.

 

[spmarshall]

I have always agreed with that, but not as a replacement for the SRT. We should be moving towards a real regional urban frequency system, Stouffville might be the perfect start, followed by a real solution for Weston/Brampton/Pearson Airport.

 

[officedweller]

The existing guideway probably would not be strong enough for either streetcars or conventional LRT - it would have to be significantly strengthened. Both types of vehicles are built sturdier and are heavier than exclusive ROW vehicles like the RT (or subway cars) - because they have to withstand crashes with cars and trucks.

 

[Suicidal Gingerbread Man]

^
New streetcars are considerably lighter than the current TTC fleet, so I wouldn't worry about that. Considering that the original concept of the Scarborough RT had CLRVs or ALRVs running along it, I'd say it can easy carry a new model streetcar. Our streetcars are INCREDIBLY heavy.

Speaking of which, I wonder if the reduced weight of the replacement streetcars will mean longer stretches between needed track replacement.

 

[Mark Dowling]

the point about where stairs are located is an excellent one. As a daily Danforth/Yonge traveller I wish the Yonge subway platforms at Bloor could be extended/relocated northwards so that where people enter from the B-D is nearer the centre of the train and thus the passengers would spread more evenly along the train.

On a long term basis I think the aim should be to extend the subway to SCC when demand requires to meet the extended Sheppard line and form one long Y-U-S type line but that's a way off.

 

[cassiusa]

Speaking of which, I wonder if the reduced weight of the replacement streetcars will mean longer stretches between needed track replacement.

I'd imagine there might also be a savings in electrical energy as well. Too bad streetcars didn't have some solar panels that would charge massive onboard batteries in case of emergency.