[officedweller]

"subways aren't built to anticipate demand"

That statement is counter to the entire concept of transit-oriented development.

Transit has a very strong development shaping effect. It is much better to concentrate growth in response to an existing station location, than trying to build a line or stations at some future point in time to serve a sprawling area. It is also easier to encourage development around an existing station than in response to some future promise of a station. Building the line to VCC would solidify that area as the town centre and focus growth there.

i.e. The Eglinton, St. Clair and Davisville nodes did not exist prior to the subway. They were built in response to the subway.

Of course, the ability to densify around stations depends on the municipality's zoning and desire to densify - compare, for example, Scarborough Centre or the Sheppard Line stations versus the other SRT stations, where the light industrial zoning has been preserved (likely to preserve jobs and an industrial tax base)

 

[unimaginative2]

subways aren't built to ANTICIPATE demand.

why, oh why, are the europeans so much better at this than us?

Because they build subways to anticipate demand and encourage high-density development around subway lines rather than struggling to serve areas that have been designed around road infrastructure.

 

[Abeja de Almirante]

Would they need to relay track, or just buy new signals/cars?

IIRC, the SRT is a different gauge than the subway, so it's a lot more than simply digging a ramp from subway level for the trains.

 

[wyliepoon]

The Star

Link to article

Scarborough's dream of new subway ends
TTC commissioners to formally recommend
refurbishing the existing LRT line instead
Aug. 28, 2006. 05:53 AM
KEVIN MCGRAN
TRANSPORTATION REPORTER

Scarborough's dream for a subway is dead. It will be officially buried Wednesday when TTC commissioners meet and formally recommend a cheaper plan to refurbish the existing Scarborough RT line to accommodate larger, new generation vehicles.

Even Scarborough councillors, who are putting together a position paper to outline the area's transit demands, seem to be okay with the idea that North York will get yet another subway (to York University) while Scarborough remains stuck at three subway stations.

"I think we came to a mature conclusion that we Scarborough politicians are not going to fight for a subway," said TTC commissioner Glenn De Baeremaeker.

"In fact, we're going to support not building a subway, and instead we're going to say: Build a new and improved LRT (light rail transit) line, and extend it up into Malvern.

"And at the same time, give us the additional lines along Kingston Road, Eglinton, Sheppard and Finch, and cover our municipality like a spider web with dedicated streetcar lanes."

A TTC report concludes that at $360 million, refurbishing the LRT is the lowest-cost option available to commissioners, and would limit service disruption to eight months while upgrades to the track and stations take place.

Replacing the LRT with streetcars would cost $490 million and disrupt service for up to three years, while building a subway option would cost $1.2 billion and probably wouldn't be ready by the time the current fleet of LRT trains end their useful shelf life.

Scarborough councillors have long complained of the lack of attention the former city receives from the TTC, saying residents pay the same fare, but have no streetcar service and only three subway stations.

Workers and students mostly must rely on bus service, which is often erratic.

But those same councillors had their fears assuaged by TTC officials last week, who promised to work out a comprehensive Scarborough transit plan that may include streetcars or bus-only lanes along key corridors, including Kingston Rd., Markham Rd., Eglinton Ave. and Lawrence Ave.

Completing the Sheppard subway to Scarborough Town Centre remains a possibility, but so does expanding the current LRT.

Scarborough doesn't have any dedicated streetcar lanes as things stand, although an environmental assessment for Kingston Rd. is expected to get underway this fall.

De Baeremaeker says Scarborough residents would be better served by a network of streetcars running in their own lanes, linking all parts of the far-flung region, than by a subway extension, which would serve only a narrow corridor.

"Do you build one subway extension or nine different streetcar lines for the same amount of money?" said De Baeremaeker.

"Either scenario — subway or the mass transit, streetcar option — we don't have the money in hand for either of them. So right now both objects are figments of our imagination."

Also at Wednesday's meeting, the TTC is also asking for $2.7 million to outfit buses and streetcars with protective barriers for operators.

A prototype of a protective barrier is in service today. The majority of bus drivers and streetcar operators told an internal TTC poll they wanted the barrier to prevent riders from spitting at them and punching them.

 

[cdl42]

Okay, I'm confused (which I assume means that the reporter must be confused as well). Are they going to "refurbish the existing Scarborough RT line" which means MkII vehicles, or are they planning on "Replacing the LRT [sic] with streetcars"? It makes it sound like they're going to keep the SRT ICTS but then build some separate LRT lines as well, meaning that no transfers at Scarborough Centre will be eliminated, and hypothetically some people might have a transfer added to their trip. Is this correct?

Hopefully one day we can get people to understand that the SRT is not an LRT and this confusion of terms can end.

 

[M II A II R II K]

The impression I get from it is to upgrade the SRT which would be cheaper than replacing it with streetcars, and build seperate ROW streetcar lines along several streets.

Surely the suggestion for a streetcar line on Sheppard won't be an alternative to the subway extension to STC.

 

[Abeja de Almirante]

What about a long moving sidewalk / conveyor set-up?

 

[unimaginative2]

Hopefully one day we can get people to understand that the SRT is not an LRT and this confusion of terms can end.

To add to the confusion, I was just reading the Eglinton West subway EA, and it refers to the Scarborough RT technology as LRT. Then, they introduce another term halfway through called MRT.

 

[spmarshall]

Also at Wednesday's meeting, the TTC is also asking for $2.7 million to outfit buses and streetcars with protective barriers for operators.

I'd rather see cameras than barriers. Cameras would help protect the safety of everyone on the bus or streetcar (as a deterrant and as a tool to catch the low-lifes), while barriers would probably turn the TTC drivers to resemble the trolls that are behind glass in subway stations. I will often thank the driver (if he/she is polite and does the job well), I'm nor sure if I'd ever do this. But the union always gets what it wants.

Edit: Another comment. Perhaps subway isn't the way to go (I do like an idea of a multi-branched, expanded LRT system even more than ICTS with Mark II cars and Malvern extension), but I can't see anything wrong with a two station extension for the Bloor-Danforth to SCC, and that the Scarborough councillors are going to accept it, especially if we're getting the Yonge-University-Sorbara line extension to the middle of sprawl.

Just exhibit "Y" in the evidence that transportation here is built on pork. Like the Sheppard Subway through Melville instead of Eglinton through Tonk's and Bob Rae's turf. Like some of the GO schedules. Like Blue 22, where SNC is the receipent of the largesse.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

A craptacular article...the only person he could manage to talk to was de Baeremaeker?

""And at the same time, give us the additional lines along Kingston Road, Eglinton, Sheppard and Finch, and cover our municipality like a spider web with dedicated streetcar lanes.""

The people of Scarborough do not want this instead of a subway.

"De Baeremaeker says Scarborough residents would be better served by a network of streetcars running in their own lanes, linking all parts of the far-flung region, than by a subway extension, which would serve only a narrow corridor."

What a fool...this is simply not true. Our councillors are screwing us.

 

[unimaginative2]

Even Scarborough councillors, who are putting together a position paper to outline the area's transit demands, seem to be okay with the idea that North York will get yet another subway (to York University) while Scarborough remains stuck at three subway stations.

Even the newspaper is astonished at their willingness to roll over and play dead on this issue. Every one of them could have chosen to run their upcoming campaigns on the subway issue. They would have received overwhelming support, and it would have been very difficult for the city to dismiss the demands of such a large voting bloc. What are they thinking?

How on earth can they justify a Sheppard subway to STC, but not one from Kennedy? This RT refurbishment is going to cost a third as much the subway, and the latter would have vastly lower operating costs and a much longer lifetime. This decision is absolutely insane.

 

[officedweller]

Sounds like MKII cars

Sounds like MKII cars because of the term "larger, new generation vehicles" Given that the MKIIs don't have a driver's cabin, I guess they'll have to make the line fully automated in the process?

Makes sense given the Ontario's/TTC's recent desire to help jobs at the Bombardier plant in Thunder Bay.

 

[unimaginative2]

Re: Sounds like MKII cars

The TTC will almost certainly order specially-made (more expensive) cars to ensure that they remain the only Skytrain/ICTS operator in the world to have drivers on the completely automated system.

Where are the assessments of operating costs of the refurbished RT vs. subway? How long is this "refurbished" RT going to last?

 

[scarberiankhatru]

^ Of course...the TTC will almost certainly be counted upon to recommend and implement the alternative that maintains or creates the most union/driver jobs. Current RT "drivers" are sometimes spotted eating soup at the wheel...

 

[Suicidal Gingerbread Man]

the TTC will almost certainly be counted upon to recommend and implement the alternative that maintains or creates the most union/driver jobs. Current RT "drivers" are sometimes spotted eating soup at the wheel...

OMG! Soup! I can't believe that example has come up twice on this forum.