[Voltz]

So if this subway plan actually goes ahead, what happens to the existing SRT corridor? Can anything useful be done with it? Worth preserving as a future transit corridor (with all that talk of density and development potential along the route)?

Fully grade-separated bikeway?

Don't think Ford would go for a bikeway, it would take away lanes of traffic you know.

 

[scar_resident]

So if this subway plan actually goes ahead, what happens to the existing SRT corridor? Can anything useful be done with it? Worth preserving as a future transit corridor (with all that talk of density and development potential along the route)?

Fully grade-separated bikeway?

Most of the Scarborough hydro corridors are green space with bike paths, so it is not an outlandish suggestion.

 

[scar_resident]

You should look up what happened with the first subway construction. Scarborough and Etobicoke councillers were outraged that their residents were being asked to pay for a subway for downtown residents that most of them would never use. To appease the voters they abolished the fare by distance mechanism and went with flat fare across the system.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

scar_resident:

The first subway was built before Metro was in place - I believe the levy was restricted to the City of Toronto then (which does not include either Scarborough or Etobicoke), and by the time the zone fare was eliminated the subway expansions are pretty much all suburban.

http://transit.toronto.on.ca/spare/0021.shtml

And this bit about "pay for a subway for downtown residents that most of them would never use" is a bit funny - it wasn't like riders in Etobicoke or Scarborough use it just for intra-suburban commutes anyways.

AoD

 

[nfitz]

scar_resident:

The first subway was built before Metro was in place - I believe the levy was restricted to the City of Toronto then (which does not include either Scarborough or Etobicoke), and by the time the zone fare was eliminated the subway expansions are pretty much all suburban.

To be fair, I think scar_resident was referring to the first subway that funding was required for. Remember the initial Yonge subway was funded by TTC surpluses. The next stage (the 3-phased plan to extend to St. George, and build the interlining Bloor-Danforth from Keele to Woodbine ... followed very shortly afterwards with the extensions to Islington and Warden) is I believe what scar_resident was referring to.

 

[TOareaFan]

To be fair, I think scar_resident was referring to the first subway that funding was required for. Remember the initial Yonge subway was funded by TTC surpluses. The next stage (the 3-phased plan to extend to St. George, and build the interlining Bloor-Danforth from Keele to Woodbine ... followed very shortly afterwards with the extensions to Islington and Warden) is I believe what scar_resident was referring to.

Thanks for that....but (and I was not living in the area at the time) were Scarborough and Etobicoke councillors really, at that time, suggesting the subway was only for downtown residents even though the expansion you speak of brought the subways to, you know, Scarborough and Etobicoke?

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

nfitz:

Except quid-pro-quo a whole litany of infrastructure improvements (from roads, highways to sewers and water) dedicated to suburban expansion comes from the city, and the City of Toronto then has a larger population than the burbs at that time. One really can't play this game when all benefits.

TOareafan:

According to Transit Toronto, there is pressure to extend BD to Scar and Etobicoke - which make sense, considering both were growth areas.

http://transit.toronto.on.ca/subway/5104.shtml

I find this bit particularly informative however of the current troubles facing our system - the seeds were clearly sown long before then (though a bit earlier than I imagined)

In order to “maintain an uninterrupted program of subway construction”, Metro Chairman Frederick Gardiner discovered that it was not only sensible, but politically easier to extend the established subway lines into the suburbs than it was to get Metro Council to agree on the location of a new line. Extending the established lines was cheaper than building from scratch, and it fulfilled some of the suburban municipalities’ demands for improved transit service.

They had the benefit of a system not at saturation - and political expediency at the time has clearly lead to future headaches.

AoD

 

[Electrify]

Overall I am very happy with this outcome.

If we put politics aside and look at these plans objectively, both have their merits and their faults. The light rail option was hardly some bastion of fiscal responsibility like some argue, spending x millions of dollars to... change the power supply of the track. Perhaps in the long term it would be beneficial since it would make new vehicle purchases more affordable, but in the short term it is an absolute boondoggle. This says nothing about shutting down the line for several years for this retrofit to take place.

Another benefit of the subway option is that it will better create a moderate transit speed connection between Scarborough and Durham. MiWay, Zum, and Viva buses all connect to downtown bound subways, or will once all is complete. However Dart buses will be unique in having this jog to contend with under the light rail plan.

Best of all, if the upper levels of government do not commit (which we may find out in as little as 45 minutes from now), then we have the light rail plan to fall back on. Overall I don't think it is as good as the subway extension, but it is a very good plan nonetheless with its own set of benefits.

I'm not saying the subway plan is perfect. As pointed out, the walk to the mall will be longer, though hardly as unbearable as some argue (guidelines for walking distance to rapid transit tend to be up to 1km, this walk will be less than half of that). I'm also perplexed by why there is no stop at the Brimley/Eglinton/Danforth junction, as there is both current and potential density in this area (and this from a transit agency which is almost obsessed with putting stops too close together).

I just feel that some are looking for reasons to discredit the subway option because it wasn't proposed by Saint David or other leftist politicians, rather than critically analyzing both strategies and weighing the pros and cons of each.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Electrify:

Indeed, let's put it this way - at least it is the subway extension that can be justified on the basis of ridership. That said, my critique is mainly on the process and the arguments used to reach that decision, and less on the outcome itself.

AoD

 

[nfitz]

Thanks for that....but (and I was not living in the area at the time) were Scarborough and Etobicoke councillors really, at that time, suggesting the subway was only for downtown residents even though the expansion you speak of brought the subways to, you know, Scarborough and Etobicoke?

The expansion brought it to Jane and Woodbine ... both in Toronto (actually I think Woodbine is about 10 feet into East York ... but certainly not in Scarborough). Suddenly they accelerated the expansion plans into Etobicoke and Scarborough ... I'm not sure the politics of the time, but I know zoning was a huge issue back then.

Wouldn't take much to pull up old Toronto Star's and see what they were saying. I'd be shocked of Scarborough and Etobicoke weren't whining. Though I'm kind of surprised that Etobicoke isn't saying much now, given how much rapid transit expansion is planned for North York and Scarborough, while all the Etobicoke projects have been cancelled.

 

[Electrify]

Electrify:

Indeed, let's put it this way - at least it is the subway extension that can be justified on the basis of ridership. That said, my critique is mainly on the process and the arguments used to reach that decision, and less on the outcome itself.

AoD

Fair enough. I didn't watch this debate, but the Sheppard debates I was facepalming myself the entire time. It was sad to see that the people in the decision making roles, on both sides, had no frickin clue as to what they were debating about!

 

[nfitz]

Overall I am very happy with this outcome.

The only immediate outcome is likely that Metrolinx will suspend the tender for the Conlins Yard construction (again) and amend the Eglinton-Scarborough one, to only be Eglinton.

Who knows how many years it will be before the 3-station Danforth extension gets approved. And if they do now change their minds, again, and want to go back to the SRT, they'll have lost the window on the current tenders, which will delay the project further.

 

[k10ery]

Electrify:

Indeed, let's put it this way - at least it is the subway extension that can be justified on the basis of ridership. That said, my critique is mainly on the process and the arguments used to reach that decision, and less on the outcome itself.

AoD

I don't want to pick a fight with somebody as reasonable and well-informed as you. But what the heck does this mean? The forecast ridership can be handled by LRT, and LRT is cheaper and gets completed faster. So subway CANNOT be justified by ridership, in spite of whatever rule of thumb you're using to state otherwise.

This matters because murky messages from experts are a cause of this problem. It allows politicians to play their games and pretend that they're doing the right thing. If absolutely everybody had just laughed Stintz down when she reopened this can of worms, then we wouldn't be in this mess now.

 

[Johnny Au]

A very short stretch of the Bloor-Danforth line between Old Mill and Jane is in the former city of York.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

k10:

By that I mean the extension won't be a complete and utter disaster - it is a choice that will have utility. I have no issues with going a little bit above and beyond in marginal cases like these. What I do wish however is that we have a bit more clarity on cost/revenues, alignment and set forth clear expectations what this line is supposed to achieve and what planning mechanisms are in place to help achieve those goals. Simply saying "Scarborough wants a subway" isn't it.

Actually to be frank the real error was made when we went for RT 30+ years ago.

AoD