[ShonTron]

Really? It looks like the Oakwood stop is a 5 minute walk from the subway station, at a completely flat elevation - why would someone wait for the LRT when they could just walk to the station?

It's 600 metres from the intersection to Allen Road, 650 metres to Dufferin. Oakwood to Allen Road is exactly the same distance between Bathurst and Christie Streets and Christie and Ossington.

I think that it is fair that Eglinton has similar stop spacing as Bloor-Danforth. Oakwood, in a relatively dense area that could use some investment, is no Leslie Street. To take money from Eglinton West to throw at a bungled Scarborough flip-flop isn't right.

 

[JayBeeGooner]

Really? It looks like the Oakwood stop is a 5 minute walk from the subway station, at a completely flat elevation - why would someone wait for the LRT when they could just walk to the station?

It's more like 8-10 minutes at my walking speed (I walk quite fast).

It's bad enough this (unlikely) subway won't adequately serve the residents most likely to use it, but now there's suggestion to take money away from a nieghbourhood that badly needs rapid transit, and investment.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Once the city gets funding, the next agenda item is the Environmental Assessment for any Scarborough Subway replacement for the SRT, which must be done. They’ll have to decide on the exact route the tracks would take, along with where the three new stations will be built, Lawrence Avenue East, Scarborough Centre, and Sheppard East. That is what it is budgeted for.

However, I can see there will be demands for another station, somewhere near Eglinton Avenue East and McCowan Road. Maybe it can be roughed-in, like the still unneeded(?) Willowdale Station on the Sheppard Subway. The negative news is that to put in another station, it would increase the cost (gravy?), which is why it has been left out of the current plans.

Will there be demands for another station? I don’t know. It would increase the cost of the project, which I think the provincial (and federal?) governments may not want to kick in extra. Maybe the city will have to pay for any other additional stations, but would the current administration go for it? If they do, they might as well build the Willowdale Station on the Sheppard line as well.

Another negative for adding another station, is that it would reduce the overall speed of trains. Trains will have to decelerate, stop, allow time for passengers to enter or egress, and then accelerate. Each additional station will slow the trains. If you want faster trains (LRT or HRT), you have to have less stations.

 

[Electrify]

It's 600 metres from the intersection to Allen Road, 650 metres to Dufferin. Oakwood to Allen Road is exactly the same distance between Bathurst and Christie Streets and Christie and Ossington.

I think that it is fair that Eglinton has similar stop spacing as Bloor-Danforth. Oakwood, in a relatively dense area that could use some investment, is no Leslie Street. To take money from Eglinton West to throw at a bungled Scarborough flip-flop isn't right.

I'm just brainstorming ways to try and find the money to make this happen, and improve it as well. Oakwood is a very urban street, though it should be noted that the Oakwood Village area begins about 300m south of Eglinton. The current bus would probably still be in use, and could continue to turn on to Eglinton towards Eglinton West station. That said, there certainly is more justification for an Oakwood stop than for many of the other subway stops in this city, let alone LRT.

It looks like the city is in a bit of a predicament right now. The province expects the city to pay the difference, which is hardly unreasonable, but where are they going to get the money? They could quietly axe stations and stops which would see lesser ridership on the new LRT lines, but that could upset residents and some of these stops do justify their existence. Likewise the city could raise taxes, but then other parts of the city which don't require more could want more as well. Etobicoke has been far more subway deprived than Scarborough ever was could start demanding that they get rapid transit expansion as well.

The city needs to lobby the province as to why it should pay up an extra $400 million. As of now, it just looks like a kid wanting a fancier toy. There are many benefits to going forward as a subway, especially from a regional perspective, but unless the province understands this then there is no reason for them to put in more money.

We have about two and half months to figure out what we are to do. The province has made its position clear, and it is a respectable position. It is unlikely the feds will come to the rescue (though during the LRT vs subway debates last year, the Toronto Sun had a cover quoting Harper saying he endorses subways...), so perhaps it is best to go back to the LRT design. That said, it should be accompanied with new zoning to increase density around Kennedy, Ellesmere, and Midland stations. Not necessarily to build 100 story condo towers, but to create a more urban feel and make these places destinations rather than barren spaces and transfer points.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Electrify:

It looks like the city is in a bit of a predicament right now. The province expects the city to pay the difference, which is hardly unreasonable, but where are they going to get the money? They could quietly axe stations and stops which would see lesser ridership on the new LRT lines, but that could upset residents and some of these stops do justify their existence. Likewise the city could raise taxes, but then other parts of the city which don't require more could want more as well. Etobicoke has been far more subway deprived than Scarborough ever was could start demanding that they get rapid transit expansion as well.

The city needs to lobby the province as to why it should pay up an extra $400 million. As of now, it just looks like a kid wanting a fancier toy. There are many benefits to going forward as a subway, especially from a regional perspective, but unless the province understands this then there is no reason for them to put in more money.

The city is the one who ultimately wanted the subway - why shouldn't the residents (particularly those who scream and yell about it the loudest) pay extra (and really, it isn't THAT much extra) for it? Demanding others pay up when one changes their mind is rather hypocritical. To argue that a mode change will somehow provide regional benefit is also a bit dishonest - it wasn't like it was "new" transit to an area without it before.

And if one is worried about this Scarborough got a subway and now Etobicoke needs one now issue - sorry, one sleeps in the bed one makes. I have very, very little sympathy for those who open a Pandora's box knowing what it is before and then complaining about the litany of issues they now have to deal with because of it.

AoD

 

[bobbob911]

Electrify:



The city is the one who ultimately wanted the subway - why shouldn't the residents (particularly those who scream and yell about it the loudest) pay extra (and really, it isn't THAT much extra) for it? Demanding others pay up when one changes their mind is rather hypocritical. To argue that a mode change will somehow provide regional benefit is also a bit dishonest - it wasn't like it was "new" transit to an area without it before.

Well, you could definitely argue the subway greatly enhances the commuters from the east (ajax, pickering, etc) as they can now drive to STC and jump on a subway all the way downtown. That's a superior commute to having the LRT in place.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

bobbob911:

As I have said before, that's a "nice to have" and make for a lower quality argument for BD extension than ridership justification. Besides, just how many people from Ajax, Pickering, etc -would chose to head to STC for the transfer in the two different scenarios? The limiter likely won't be LRT vs. BD but the distance and connection from STC to those said areas. The benefits of BD extension is mainly local - and given how much the province is paying up, why shouldn't the locals pony up a bit more for a choice that they (and they alone) chose to make (and remake, again and again)? At the end of the day, isn't the argument for need something that is best shown by one's willingness to pony up for it?

AoD

 

[bobbob911]

Besides, just how many people from Ajax, Pickering, etc -would chose to head to STC for the transfer in the two different scenarios?

Cost/benefit analysis aside, if I lived east of the city and I worked anywhere close to Bloor downtown, I would absolutely do that commute instead of taking the GO train and then a subway northbound. Also, If I were headed downtown for shopping or dinner, etc, I would also choose that way of getting downtown, no question. I am sure less people would do it in case of the LRT.

I'm not arguing that Toronto should not pick up more of the tab (it should), only that there is tangible incremental regional benefit.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

bobbob911:

Cost/benefit analysis aside, if I lived east of the city and I worked anywhere close to Bloor downtown, I would absolutely do that commute instead of taking the GO train and then a subway northbound. Also, If I were headed downtown for shopping etc, I would also choose that way of getting downtown, no question. I am sure less people would do it in case of the LRT.

If you are inclined to travel that way, you would have travelled it with the current RT anyways. And if you are in Ajax, Pickering or whatever, chances are you will go with GO regardless of whether there is a BD extension or not. Artificially setting aside cost/benefit when it is at the core of the debate (who should pay how much and what) doesn't do it justice. Are there any overriding reasons why the province should pay more even though it covers 2/3 of the cost of the project, and equally overriding reasons as to why the remainder of the cost should not fall onto the city which made the decision on proceeding with the subway? I highly doubt that the regional benefit is on the mayor's and councillors' mind in their rationalization of that decision - so to wheel that out as a post hoc justification is a rather weak argument.

AoD

 

[bobbob911]

If you are inclined to travel that way, you would have travelled it with the current RT anyways. And if you are in Ajax, Pickering or whatever, chances are you will go with GO regardless of whether there is a BD extension or not. Artificially setting aside cost/benefit when it is at the core of the debate (who should pay how much and what) doesn't do it justice.

I disagree, but that is just my opinion Certainly, if your destination isn't Union station or its direct vicinity, you probably aren't taking the GO train. Having to pay for GO and TTC every day is a big impediment to that.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

bobbob911:

The second part of my argument is even more important than the first Look, I support the BD extension (albeit it mildly, relative to other priorities) but we need to be honest with ourselves and stop expecting others to pay for decisions we've made. If we want subways, we better be damn sure that we are going to pay our part - the disgusting self-congratulatory BS over the last few days made me sick.

AoD

 

[bobbob911]

Are there any overriding reasons why the province should pay more even though it covers 2/3 of the cost of the project, and equally overriding reasons as to why the remainder of the cost should not fall onto the city which made the decision on proceeding with the subway? I highly doubt that the regional benefit is on the mayor's and councillors' mind in their rationalization of that decision - so to wheel that out as a post hoc justification is a rather weak argument.

I can't disagree with anything you've said here.

As an aside, one thing I didn't realize until today is that the Fed infrastructure program is a 1:1 dollar match - so we can't just simply ask the Feds to make up the $400M difference. At best we could ask for another $200M from them and increase our "skin" by another $200 as well. Any such arrangement would need to be re-voted on by city council, of course....

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

bobbob911:

Yeah, and can you imagine the furor with a mayor who pretended we can have a subway by raising taxes (reluctantly) by .25% a year (without mentioning that it is over 4 years after low-balling the figure in the first place) and a council that rejected pretty much all the revenue streams on transit expansion? Even in your optimistic scenario paying for what, 1/6 of the cost while claiming that's "skin" is a revolting display of an emperor without clothes.

And yes, I have even less savoury words for the electorate behind that crowd, but it will probably run afoul of forum rules.

AoD

 

[bobbob911]

Well, the idealist would say that in most other major cities the vast majority of funding for massive transportation infrastructure is not payed for at the municipal level, and certainly not through property taxes. Our federal government gets off virtually scot free in this respect.

 

[TOareaFan]

Well, the idealist would say that in most other major cities the vast majority of funding for massive transportation infrastructure is not payed for at the municipal level, and certainly not through property taxes. Our federal government gets off virtually scot free in this respect.

The vast majority of the cost of this extension is already not being paid for at the municipal level. A 2/3 commitment from the province assures that.