[rbt]

So, essentially, prioritizing an item that was not in Metrolinx' plan in the first place?

Which priority item (as defined by Metrolinx) would have to fall down the ladder? Do the other municipal partners of Metrolinx get a say in this?

Part of the new revenue tools is to give municipalities cash for their own systems. I speculated the province may let Toronto use that.

So, items that should get pushed down are whatever Toronto (Ford) might prioritize for it's own system like a second articulated bus order, platform doors, subway fire safety improvements, etc.

I don't think Ford is going to fund a downtown tram order or East Bayfront streetcar line, though that money could be used for those purposes too.

 

[TOareaFan]

Part of the new revenue tools is to give municipalities cash for their own systems. I speculated the province may let Toronto use that.

My mistake then....I thought the revenue tools were to fund the Big Move expansion projects.

 

[bobbob911]

Not only is there no overriding reasons why the city can't do it now, the proposed taxation increase passed yesterday covered the contingency of no Federal funding AND only $1.395 billion from the province.

Mihevic's amendment to the motion that was passed 40-4 specifically requires the province to come to the table with $1.8B.

 

[Roy G Biv]

Mihevic's amendment to the motion that was passed 40-4 specifically requires the province to come to the table with $1.8B.

So the motion will have to be amended or it's dead?

 

[bobbob911]

So the motion will have to be amended or it's dead?

If the province does not change its mind, yes. However, consider how many councilors voted for the motion either a)assuming the provincial and fed money would never come to the table, or b)were happy to only pay 1.1% increase and no more, and any revote to increase the city's "skin" would be fairly likely to fail.

 

[drum118]

drum118:

Well, does the city want the subway bad enough to cough up the cash needed? I think Scarborough and the rest of the city need to answer that one. Municipalities contributed 1/3 of the Spadina extension - are there any overriding reasons why the city can't do so now, other than political expediency?

AoD

How much of a debit load do expect the city to carry as well finance it that will takes money away from other badly needed items without raising taxes? 10, 20, 30, 40 or 50%???

How much of a tax hike is require to allow everything to get built?

We know at this point it will cost about $2 person per year to cover the LRT plan vs. $10 for the subway.

The city is partly to blame for the mess transit is in with the province taking most of it.

Up to the beginning of the 70's, TTC was allow to make a profit and keep the money to invest into the system. That not the case today to the point TTC has to turn over that profit to the city and then beg for money.

One of the condition the province put on the city during the realignment of the city and surrounding area was TTC scrapping the zone fare beginning of the 70's. TTC was to be roll into the Transportation and Work back then, but was allow to exist as is at the last moment. It had no veto power over Transportation & Works plans related to what TTC should do that Metro Council had to make the final call. Since Council was control by the suburbs, TTC was to build subways and service into their area over the objection of TTC. TTC was to disappear again in the late 90's when Harris scraped it under his plan, but was allow to live at the last moment.

The City/Metro Council allow low density to be built with the expectation of high order of transit, but not will to pay for it. How do you cover a low cost ratio route/line while providing service that a high ratio is providing.

In the 60's TTC was over rule in regard where the University line was to go. It also wanted to built the DRL and was over rule. The province forced TTC to built the Spadina line when it cancel the expressway.

The province forced TTC to built the SRT over the plan streetcar line.

The city and TTC had the chance 5 years ago to built this extension and chose not to due to cost.

If we look a around the GTA area, most areas are looking at 6-9% tax increase for 2014 let alone the past 2 years while Toronto is only looking at 2.5%. Toronto will still have the lowest tax rate than the GTA. The 905 gets far less in the way of transit at a higher cost to use it compare to Toronto.

How much more money would Toronto have to work with if the taxes went up 5-7%/year for the next 10 years?

TTC would have a lot more money to do things than it can today, let alone the next 10 years. That subway to Cloverdale let alone to Sherway on the BD can happen; the extension of the Sheppard line to Downsview; the Yonge line extension to Steeles and The DRL to Sheppard all can be built. Paris is about to double the size of their system over what TTC has today and they found the money.

Lack of leadership and council not working for the good of the city as a whole, as well having a job for life is stopping things now.

TTC was control by a small group with no connection to council in the past that things got done on time and under budget. Today it is control by the whim of councilors who sit on the the commission with no understand how it should operate. You also have a few non councilors on the commission that are lost in the dark on the running of the system as well dealing with council.

If Council wants a subway, it need to stand up to the plate and tell the taxpayer what they expect to see on their tax bill for the next 10 years as 3 years is not going to cut it. It also better be prepare to be shown the door next October in 2014.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Boss Mihevic...

 

[Johnny Au]

Boss Mihevic...

His surname is actually spelled Mihevc (Slovenian name).

 

[rbt]

My mistake then....I thought the revenue tools were to fund the Big Move expansion projects.

Most of it is (75%).

Metrolinx is expected to give about 15% of what is brought in to municipalities to fund local transit and to give about 10% to MTO for highway maintenance/expansion.


Wynne could remind Ford about the $100M/year new revenues would give Toronto, and put Ford in the hot-seat of deciding publicly to support Metrolinx's revenues or building the subway in Scarborough or closing the gap himself.

 

[Forgotten]

Steve Munro is convinced that no money will be coming from province or feds. I don't know. Provincially the Libs are in a tight spot if they want to win not only the by-election but also seats whenever we go to a general election. Then again I don't understand why the $400m needed to be transferred from the SRT to the Crosstown anyways. If the money is supposed to be spent on Kennedy Station anyways then I can't believe they'd quibble over that. I'd say the real wildcard is the feds - money might come but I don't know how fast they'd work.

All Wynne has to say is $1.4 billion was known well in advance of the vote. She can't fork over another $400 million for Toronto when other cities have projects in the queue. Get in line behind Mississauga, Hamilton, or some other place.

Is there not a very complex underground loop for the new SRT-LRT with an underground, non revenue connection to the ECLRT. Also, the SRT has a separate underground station from the ECLRT. $400M does seem high since it hasn't been spent, but it does appear that the SRT portion of the Kennedy station is more complex than the ECLRT portion. Does this mean that there would be close to $400M savings if the SRT was continuous with the ECLRT - i.e. only one station (at ECLRT level), no underground loop, no underground loop, etc.)?

What's so complex about it? Looking at the diagrams it looks like a very simple build relatively speaking and it would be just under the existing roadway into/out of the station. The biggest cost is deciding to dig a hole to begin with. They also have to build a temporary terminal for the buses while digging even if just for Eglinton.

 

[TOareaFan]

Most of it is (75%).

Metrolinx is expected to give about 15% of what is brought in to municipalities to fund local transit and to give about 10% to MTO for highway maintenance/expansion.

I had just found the presentation from May 27th when you posted that....it is nearly (but not quite) what you think:

Provide an effective mechanism to fund regional
and local projects:
• 75 % to Next Wave Rapid Transit projects
• Up to 25% to a Big Move Partnership Initiative, consisting of:

1. Up to 15% allocated on a matching basis to support local roads, transit and bridges
2. Up to 5% for improvements to area highways
3. Up to 5% for multimodal and other transportation initiatives

So the 15% local allocation is supposed to support a bit more than just transit...so if it were $2B a year, 15% would be $300 million....so Toronto would get, what, half of that $150 million....so they would have to "rob"/shift from things like roads and bridges (as well as other locally identified transit needs) to use this money to fund the other 1/3 (I think that is what you were suggesting when you introduced the idea....sorry if that was not the case )

 

[rbt]

I had just found the presentation from May 27th when you posted that....it is nearly (but not quite) what you think:

So the 15% local allocation is supposed to support a bit more than just transit...so if it were $2B a year, 15% would be $300 million....so Toronto would get, what, half of that $150 million....so they would have to "rob"/shift from things like roads and bridges (as well as other locally identified transit needs) to use this money to fund the other 1/3 (I think that is what you were suggesting when you introduced the idea....sorry if that was not the case )

Yes, 15% to municipalities to spend on transportation infrastructure as they see fit. Halton will put theirs into bridges and roads and Toronto will inevitably put its cut into TTC related debt.

Without Metrolinx revenue tools, Toronto has to cover all of the mentioned items by itself. This is new money, and as such we can choose to continue covering the other things ourselves and put it into the subway extension if we want. The amount available would be enough to cover the SCC extension funding gap over a 10 to 15 year period.

The main point here is Wynne doesn't have to take a political hit by saying no to the subway. She can remind the electorate (and Toronto Council) that money is on the table to close the subway funding gap if they want it without direct provincial or federal support.


If Ford says no to taxes, Wynne can blame Ford for killing the subway when it comes up during the next provincial election. Province has a deficit, money was offered anyway, Ford didn't take it.

If Ford says yes to the subway, Wynne can make him shut-up when he complains about Metrolinx revenue tools during the election by reminding everybody that those tools are funding Ford's pet project in addition to a huge number of other things.

 

[Xray_Crystal_Junkie]

Let the TTC sell bonds against future revenue, can they seriously not do that already? Have it backstopped by the city and people would flood to buy them with interest rates still so incredible low. Why do the "missing" funds need to be raised within a single fiscal year?

I think this project is a waste, but surely there are creative ways to fund it. Especially in this current climate of interest rates.

(I guess this assumes the TTC wouldn't increase money-sucking bus service around the subway. In which case building the subway would create a larger deficit - an increase in costs outstripping the increase in revenues - once built)

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

His surname is actually spelled Mihevc (Slovenian name).

Sorry for the typo.

 

[Jonny5]

Let the TTC sell bonds against future revenue, can they seriously not do that already? Have it backstopped by the city and people would flood to buy them with interest rates still so incredible low. Why do the "missing" funds need to be raised within a single fiscal year?

I think this project is a waste, but surely there are creative ways to fund it. Especially in this current climate of interest rates.

(I guess this assumes the TTC wouldn't increase money-sucking bus service around the subway. In which case building the subway would create a larger deficit - an increase in costs outstripping the increase in revenues - once built)

What?

You want the TTC to issue it's own debt, but then the city to backstop that debt? So why not just have the city issue the debt? There is no improvement in credit rating available by this process.

And why would people "flood to buy" TTC bonds "because interest rates are so low". Are you saying they would because the TTC debt would carry high interest? So they're paying extra interest for no reason at all?