[innsertnamehere]

While I completely agree with your plan BurlOak, I disagree that it will force the DRL. If anything, it will delay the DRL as the load on Bloor-Yonge will be split between Bloor-Yonge and Eglinton-Yonge, lessening the need for the line, and reducing ridership on it. It would still be needed badly for other reasons such as the overloading of streetcar lines, but relief of Bloor-Yonge wouldn't be the main factor anymore.

 

[Rainforest]

What about at Kennedy? What you describe would need a fairly massive reconfiguration of Kennedy Station.

Yes, it will. Likely, this is not even a "reconfiguration", but a construction of a completely new Kennedy Station.

Basically, my suggestion eliminates 3.5 km of tunnel, but replaces it with 4 km of at-grade subway plus the cost of two more stations (new Kennedy and a rebuilt Lawrence East).

Not sure if this trade actually saves much, but would like to share this option.

 

[rbt]

Yes, it will. Likely, this is not even a "reconfiguration", but a construction of a completely new Kennedy Station.

Including a large chunk of existing tunnel leading up to Kennedy.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Yes, it will. Likely, this is not even a "reconfiguration", but a construction of a completely new Kennedy Station.

Basically, my suggestion eliminates 3.5 km of tunnel, but replaces it with 4 km of at-grade subway plus the cost of two more stations (new Kennedy and a rebuilt Lawrence East).

Not sure if this trade actually saves much, but would like to share this option.

It's a good plan. But what you describe would require completely tearing down and relocating Kennedy station, as well as completely reconfiguring the tracks west of the station. At the very least, this would cost a billion dollars. I wouldn't be surprised if it were closer to $2 Billion. And remember, this entire extension, as currently planned, "only" costs $1.8 Billion. So all the cost savings from the removal of 3.5 km of tunnel will have been eliminated.

Also, I'm fairly certain that the TTC would have considered this solution. Replacing the SRT with a subway in the exact same alignment would have been the most obvious solution. The fact that they haven't included the option in any of their reports probably means that it was too ridiculously expensive to be considered.

 

[Rainforest]

It's a good plan. But what you describe would require completely tearing down and relocating Kennedy station, as well as completely reconfiguring the tracks west of the station. At the very least, this would cost a billion dollars. I wouldn't be surprised if it were closer to $2 Billion. And remember, this entire extension, as currently planned, "only" costs $1.8 Billion. So all the cost savings from the removal of 3.5 km of tunnel will have been eliminated.

No, it will not cost a billion. To my knowledge, none of brand new, terminal TTC subway stations, with land acquisition and bus terminal costs included, ever required more the $300 million per station. In case of Kennedy, new station box, platforms, tracks, approaching tunnel are needed, but no land acquisition, and most likely, the existing bus terminal can remain in use.

Also, I'm fairly certain that the TTC would have considered this solution. Replacing the SRT with a subway in the exact same alignment would have been the most obvious solution. The fact that they haven't included the option in any of their reports probably means that it was too ridiculously expensive to be considered.

I hope they did. But it is not ruled out that they considered subway running entirely on the SRT route, realized that there will be difficulties with the Ellesmere - Midland curve, the elevated guideway, and all 6 existing stations, and decided to avoid the SRT route altogether.

In contrast, my proposal is a combo. It uses the N-S portion of SRT route (at-grade), but then parts from the SRT route and runs in a tunnel under Ellesmere, STC, and McCowan. It still requires rebuilding Kennedy and Lawrence East stations, but avoids all other problems mentioned above.

 

[rbt]

No, it will not cost a billion. To my knowledge, none of brand new, terminal TTC subway stations, with land acquisition and bus terminal costs included, ever required more the $300 million per station. In case of Kennedy, new station box, platforms, tracks, approaching tunnel are needed, but no land acquisition, and most likely, the existing bus terminal can remain in use.

Prices climb rapidly if you allow people to use the station while it is being reconfigured.

 

[nfitz]

Prices climb rapidly if you allow people to use the station while it is being reconfigured.

That might actually create a case for simply moving the station!

 

[BurlOak]

That might actually create a case for simply moving the station!

I thought I saw a suggestion that a new Eglinton station should be built (I think it was) above the current station, on a more north-south alignment, so the subway could continue alont the SRT corridor. This way the current station could still be in use for much of the construction. Once completed, about 3 or 400m of track to the SW would have to be rebuilt to match the curve and climb needed to reach the new station.

I do not know if SRT could remain open for this part of the construction, but it definately would need a major closure when it is converted to subway. All in all, this would probably require an even longer.

Also, the current station, which is aligned east-west, could then be used for the ECLRT. The amount of reconfiguration depends on whether an LRT, which is taller than subway, can fit.

 

[Electrify]

Scarborough subway cost could be much higher than TTC's 'best estimate'
The Scarborough subway is still on track despite $1.4 billion Ontario funding question, say officials. But nobody knows what it will really cost.

City and provincial politicians offered assurances Friday that a $400 million funding dispute between TTC chair Karen Stintz and Ontario’s transportation minister hasn’t derailed the Scarborough subway.
But questions remain about the significance of that amount, given that no one is quite sure what the total bill will be.
Transportation Minister Glen Murray and Stintz publicly vowed Friday to stop sniping at one another and start collaborating to coax Ottawa to the funding table.
Stintz and city council insist Queen’s Park has to deliver the $1.8 billion it originally promised to replace the Scarborough RT with light rail transit.

But Murray is firm there’s only $1.4 billion left to extend the Bloor-Danforth subway north of Kennedy Station — $400 million must pay for renovations to Kennedy Station for the Eglinton Crosstown LRT. A further $85 million has been lost in work on the Scarborough LRT, according to Metrolinx.
But $1.4 billion is enough to start a subway, said Councillor Doug Ford. His brother Mayor Rob Ford will be reaching out to Queen’s Park and Ottawa for more funding on Monday.
The estimated price of the 7-kilometre, three-stop Scarborough subway is $2.3 billion.
“That’s our best estimate,†said TTC CEO Andy Byford. It’s based on the concept and previous experience. But it comes with the TTC’s standard cushion of plus-or-minus 30 per cent.
“We have to put that caveat on, because we haven’t done any of the design yet. Until we have done about 30 per cent of the design, we just have no way of saying exactly what the costs will be,†he said. “We’re dealing with so many unknowns at the moment that we can’t say for certain what that cost will be.â€
The unknowns can include soil conditions, geo-technical issues, the precise length of the subway, property acquisitions and the bids the TTC receives from construction companies.
Sometimes all goes according to plan. The TTC built the Sheppard subway on time and on budget in 2002 for about $1 billion.
But Councillor Denzil Minnan-Wong points to what’s happened with the Leslie St. connector track to a new lakefront streetcar garage. It was estimated to cost $14 million in 2009. Following utility work, a scope change, design and a series of community consultations, it’s now $105 million.
Another 30 per cent on the Scarborough subway brings the TTC’s “drive-by estimate†to $3.3 billion, he said.
“The probability is exceedingly high this project will grow significantly in cost,†said Minnan-Wong. He points to studies showing that municipal governments, caught up in the urgency of local projects, vastly underestimate costs.
A 2010 study by the Residential and Civil Construction Alliance of Ontario cited a survey of 58 North American rail projects. The average cost escalation was 45 per cent.
Provincial agency Metrolinx figures the $85 million in sunk costs of the rejected LRT this way: $21 million were spent on the SRT-route share of light rail vehicle (LRV) design; $41 million on planning, design and management; and $3 million on property acquisition.
What it will cost to renegotiate the LRV order with Bombardier remains unknown. Keeping the SRT running during the subway construction is expected to cost $60 million (Metrolinx’s number) to $96 million (TTC’s number) over five years, and de-commissioning the SRT will cost a further $75 million.
In the end, as well, a Scarborough subway will have ripple effects through the rest of the TTC. Thousands more riders on the Bloor-Danforth line will further press the need for a downtown relief line to relieve overcrowding. The Bloor-Danforth subway will require the upgraded signaling currently being installed on the Yonge line.
And if there is a shortfall, warned Byford, “don’t think about raiding ‘state-of-good-repair.’†That’s the money the TTC needs to keep the existing system running safely and reliably, and it’s already been pared back to the bare essentials.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/tra...scarborough_subway_costs_a_best_estimate.html

 

[Adjei]

Watch the price for this boondoggle keep escalating.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Rob Ford: our bastion of taxpayers dollars. Only had wasted $200,000,000 and counting....

 

[W. K. Lis]

Rob Ford: our bastion of taxpayers dollars. Only had wasted $200,000,000 and counting....

But look how many ponies that gets.

 

[Dan416]

Did you all already forget how the cost of Transit City kept escalating, and escalating, and escalating?

It's the nature of the beast with Transit.

Mississauga's BRT has kept escalating in cost as well, with the City on the hook for the increases.

This is NOT news guys. Gimme a break.

I'm actually surprised Sheppard was built on budget. But it (and TYSSE) would be a better guide for the BD extension than TC or the Mississauga BRT because the TTC has experience building subways, so their cost estimates should be decently accurate, in theory, whereas they don't have experience building LRT (since we don't have any) and Mississauga has no experience building BRT.

Unfortunately that doesn't bode well for the Hurontario LRT since Mississauga and Brampton have built nothing of the kind.

 

[nfitz]

Did you all already forget how the cost of Transit City kept escalating, and escalating, and escalating?

Pricing hasn't changed that much since they costed it out in 2010.

 

[gweed123]

Did you all already forget how the cost of Transit City kept escalating, and escalating, and escalating?

It's the nature of the beast with Transit.

Mississauga's BRT has kept escalating in cost as well, with the City on the hook for the increases.

This is NOT news guys. Gimme a break.

I'm actually surprised Sheppard was built on budget. But it (and TYSSE) would be a better guide for the BD extension than TC or the Mississauga BRT because the TTC has experience building subways, so their cost estimates should be decently accurate, in theory, whereas they don't have experience building LRT (since we don't have any) and Mississauga has no experience building BRT.

Unfortunately that doesn't bode well for the Hurontario LRT since Mississauga and Brampton have built nothing of the kind.

Theoretically though when it comes time to do Hurontario Metrolinx will much of the same Project Management team they used for the Eglinton, Finch, and Sheppard LRT projects.

But I do wonder how much contact the Mississauga BRT team had with OC Transpo planners and engineers. Those guys have Transitway construction down to a science.

Anyways back to Scarborough: I still think the best-case scenario at this point is the Feds don't come up with the money, and Metrolinx comes back to the City and says "we will give you the extra funding on the condition that you approve the recommended revenue tools that Metrolinx has put forward". The revenue tools vote was an embarrassment, and this would be a good opportunity for Metrolinx to get Toronto's support on the matter, even if there is a bit of coercion involved.