[TdotTrickyRicky]

I had Soberman as a professor in undergrad. He's a smart man coming from a pool of MIT transit specialists including the younger Eric Miller you might hear quoted on occasion. He's definately a pragmatist and more generalist than most engineers understanding the social implications and political realities of infrastructure initiatives. He's also kind of a dick sometimes. Decent sense of humour though. There were these Hong Kong girls who would always sit in the back of the class and talk throughout lectures. On his last day Soberman says "I'm retiring this year so this might be the last class I teach. Where are those girls that alway talk through my lectures". Scanning the class he spots them, picks up some chalk and starts whiping it at them sending the class into laughter and cheering.

EnviroTO, I understand how limited funding for public transit initiatives sometime necessitates rhetoric that takes us into us versus them public transit versus car dichotomy. But I think we need be careful how far we go with this because the main objective of transit policy in our age is still about maximizing the flow of people and goods in the region.
Part of the overall transit strategy may very well include new roads and highway connections as part of the mix.

 

[EnviroTO]

I know there is a place for new roads. I am all for the 400 extension to Sudbury and turning highway 11 north of Barrie to highway 411 all the way to North Bay. The need for a road to connect to each private property is obvious. However the bulk of the GTA is fully urbanized and the road system is already developed to a sustainable level. There is no real need that I can see for more roads here beyond optimizations on existing streets. I agree that the goal is the movement of people and goods. More focus needs to be made on a strategy to move goods around the GTA as well because one or two passenger vehicles are causing gridlock which blocks (a) vehicles loaded with passengers such a busses and (b) vehicles loaded with goods the economy depends upon.

The comparison between Toronto and other more transit friendly cities needs to be made. If we look at number of kilometres of traffic lanes (not roads but actual lanes) per square kilometre I think we would see that there is certainly no shortage of traffic lanes per square kilometre and per capita in Toronto we are already far ahead of Tokyo, London, Paris, etc. If one looks at the densest areas of New York they will see a lack of freeways and the few that exist have 6 lanes at most (nowhere near the number of lanes on the 401). In the less dense areas surrounding New York there are freeways similar to the 401 in gridlock.

So less dense areas filled with freeways doesn't work but dense areas with plentiful transit opportunities works just as well if not better. Thank goodness for that too because a underground subway or a couple of tracks in a trench or elevated above the ground fits much nicer into the urban environment than a 16 lane expressway.

 

[afransen TO]

Anywhere I can find the actual report? My quick google search only gave newspaper articles.

 

[Suicidal Gingerbread Man]

I think they could certainly afford to upgrade existing roads, such as the DVP, as well as other notable entrances into the city, such as Black Creek Drive and the Allen Expressway. There's space, and there's certainly demand.

As for subways, if Toronto is serious about handling growth, it has to start building subways for connections within the city. The Eglinton subway would be a good investment.

 

[MetroMan1000]

I question this report as there seems to be no mention as to the exploding trend of telecommuting. In 25 years, it will be common place for most companies in the teleservices, information and creative fields (to name just a few) to be "officeless".

If today's technology were to stagnate and remain the same, the trend for telecommuting would still continue to grow at the quick pace it's growing now. Now introduce holographic teleconferencing and advanced human resource management software (that keeps telecommuting employees in check to meet their required time commitment to their jobs) and see what you get.

As a result of virtual communication facilitated by a then very mature internet, cities will once again be made up of small communities where you live, work and play.

Since I'm on the subject of "futurecasting" what kind of vehicles will we have in 25 years? There's been a move towards automated highways. The technology already exists and will only get better. GPS guided cars could run virtually linked together like trains, improving traffic flow multi fold. Current highways could support several many times more cars if these cars could safely run within less than a foot apart.

Writing a report for 2031 based on today's reality is bluntly incorrect.
Now take that Soberman report, factor these new realistic variables and bring back a report that actually makes sense in 2031.

 

[afransen TO]

The danger with that, metro, is that 30 years ago they were calling for flying cars and other such hogwash.

Even if we were to develop a system for automated driving of cars on highways, it would be very difficult to roll out until every car in the fleet comes equipped with the technology, which will be 10 - 15 years after it is released in high end luxury models, if not longer.

 

[MetroMan1000]

^^ true to an extent, except that systems like this already exist today, whereas "flying cars" was just pure speculation.

Not all cars would have to use this system in order to implement it. We could convert our existing car pool lanes to GPS driven lanes. All that is required is that the car be "drive by wire" (i.e. the steering wheel isn't physically connected to the wheels, it simply tells an electronic motor to turn the wheels according to the input the driver is giving) and a GPS system running under special software. Actually, one could reason that existing cars with power steering and cruise control could be equipped to work on Automated Highways.

Regardless of implementation, considering the benefits of such a system, it's quite surprising how doable and affordable this can be.

Drive by wire cars are already showing up on production lines and many more coming up. I think it's just a matter of time before congested cities like L.A. begin adopting this technology, and Toronto will be no different if the need arises in 25 years (or less).

 

[The Mississauga Muse]

Hi there.

I'd like your comments on something.

From what I hear Mississauga could've had a subway. A while back apparently Toronto wanted to extend the subway to Sherway Gardens.

Mississauga declined --justifying this by saying it wasn't a good deal for Mississauga.

The gist I get is Mississauga wanted it to go to the city centre and since the only destination offered was Sherway, the subway thing was scuttled.

All I got was a lot of he-said/she-said on this issue.


Thanks,
The Mississauga Muse

 

[Brighter Hell]

In 25 years, it will be common place for most companies in the teleservices, information and creative fields (to name just a few) to be "officeless".

I doubt that. Creative fields need personal contact to exchange ideas, call centres need a controlled environment and supervision, etc. Not to mention that most people don't want their work and home to be in the same place.

Really, if in 25 years most companies in certain fields will be "officeless", they would be already. The technology exists, people are constantly on cell phones, Blackberries, and online, and laptops are as common as they ever will be. But the telecommuting trend isn't really panning out.

 

[EnviroTO]

The gist I get is Mississauga wanted it to go to the city centre and since the only destination offered was Sherway, the subway thing was scuttled.

The route was to extend the Bloor line to Sherway Gardens, Dixie, and on to Mississauga City Centre. The route can be seen on the last Rapid Transit Expansion Study (RTES) on the TTC website.

 

[unimaginative2]

Mississauga has always preferred an Eglinton subway to which their busway could connect. While the BD extension might serve primarily as a route for Mississauga residents to commute to jobs in downtown Toronto, the Eglinton route could also attract commuters from parts of Toronto who work in Mississauga. It would also serve the large Airport business parks.

 

[allabootmatt]

"Manhattan is served by a 6 lane freeway with a population far greater than Toronto."

Actually Manhattan's population is about 1/2 of Toronto's. New York City's total population IS much greater, and it is correspondingly served by a freeway network that is enormous compared to ours (BQE, LIE, Hutch, Cross-Bronx, Grand Central to name a few).

I was especially encouraged by Soberman's quote in the post about putting subways "where the people are," which seems a note of utter, bald logic that is totally missing from nearly every TTC planning debate. Maybe if he keeps carping about it we can see some meaningful discussion of an Eglinton or DRL line, the construction of which would solve about 2/3 of the city's transport problems in one swoop.

 

[EnviroTO]

You are right, re Manhattan's population since it is only 1.5 million, I meant population density, however if you add Brooklyn to the equation... that adds a population of 2.4 million and only a small 3 lanes in each direction beltway. Granted the north Bronx, east Queens and everything else beyond the city has a lot of freeways but those areas with the most freeways are worse off in terms of true mobility.

 

[Ed007Toronto]

Manhattan's population probably doubles during working hours. And there are two freeways in Manhattan (FDR and The Henry Hudson Parkway). A small part of the Cross Bronx Exp. also cuts through Manhattan.

 

[billonlogan]

Link to article

Ashton points to Scarborough as transit, planning test case for rest of city

SUSAN O'NEILL
www.insideToronto.com

01/11/07 11:48:00
Council's ability to address the planning and transportation needs in Scarborough will be a test case for how well the city handles the challenges facing Toronto as a whole, according to Ward 36 Councillor Brian Ashton (Scarborough Southwest).

Ashton is taking on the role of chairing the city's new planning and growth management committee.

And as he looks ahead to the next four years, he argues the city's plans to revitalize Kingston Road will be a test of council's ability to plan for the future in a way that ensures Toronto's success as an urban centre.

"One thing that's neat about Scarborough is I really strongly believe Scarborough is right at the front of the curve, it's really the pioneering area," Ashton said in an interview this week.

The city and the TTC are preparing to launch an environmental assessment (EA) that will study transit improvements planned for the section of Kingston Road between Victoria Park and Eglinton avenues.

The longtime councillor says the upcoming EA could serve as a model for planning and transportation across the city.

"Why this makes an interesting model or exercise is … Birch Cliff is different than Cliffside, Cliffside is different than the Cliffcrest portion. So you have an opportunity with the three different types of suburban environments to test new city development opportunities and transit visions," he said.

Ashton said there is a benefit to Scarborough because the city has learned much from the St. Clair streetcar right-of-way exercise on issues like the impact on the environment and businesses, the transportation capacity of the road and how the communities will respond.

"Hopefully … we're going to launch it in a way that the EA will be a real study in local democracy and getting local input into how do we use this opportunity to rebuild Kingston Road?" he said. "It will almost be an example for other avenues, in not only Scarborough but in North York and Etobicoke, on how to revitalize."

Ashton also said the timing of the EA is important because the TTC is developing an integrated transit plan for Scarborough.

"If we can't solve it in Scarborough, the rest of the city is pretty much doomed," he said, adding if the mayor and council concentrate on these projects it will be "a test of the city's ability to develop this new international, North American city that's environmentally sustainable and socially mobile and economically prosperous."

Ashton also said it's important for the city to ensure neighbourhoods remain strong as Toronto's population grows.

"We need enough flexibility in the planning regime to honour the local neighbourhoods and to allow them to flourish, to breathe," he said, adding it's essential to manage any market intrusions that threaten to stifle or crush neighbourhoods.

"That's one of the issues, when places become successful, strangely enough the market comes in and changes what made it successful in the first place," he said, citing the Beach as an example.

"The more successful that becomes, the more people want to come in and rezone it and put something bigger and taller, and then you say why would you do that you're destroying what made it work in the first place? So that's the balance we have to find," he said.

The first planning and growth management committee meeting takes place Thursday.
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I still have my doubts that surface ROWs will work in Scarborough. Extending Sheppard and B-D eastward is a better solution, albeit expensive, but underground subways is the way to go.