[spmarshall]

ICTS has proven itself in places like London's Docklands and Vancouver. All that's proven in Toronto is that something better is warranted given crowding and reliability issues.

 

[unimaginative2]

The TTC also fails to use all of the technology's most useful features. Automation would dramatically reduce operation cost and therefore improve frequency. ICTS also has more advanced signalling than the subway and therefore can have much higher frequencies, but the TTC doesn't have enough cars and the single-track turnaround at Kennedy is very limiting.

 

[wyliepoon]

With automation, the TTC could have tested a lot of things on the SRT... automated announcements (which its counterparts in Detroit and Vancouver now have), platform screen doors (since the trains stop at almost exactly the same spot at each station), etc.

 

[socialwoe]

Right, ICTS technology wouldn't be useless if it was all over the city, but that's not a good reason to expand it...the subway is the only real option.

Yes but what you fail to understand is that while everyone is holding out on hope and whims for the construction of a subway extension which may never mateialize, in the meantime we could have been adjusting and adapting to modern solutions like building a fleet/series of ELRT hybrid technology across the city landscape. The longer we delay for subways, the more the population booms, the more buses smog and overcrowd, the more people say a big F U to public transit and go onto contribute even more smog, etc. I'd like to see transit that's...
-cheaper to construct
-less time to commence operation
-allots more station density
-is cheaper, hence can be run over a greater length

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Yes but what you fail to understand is that while everyone is holding out on hope and whims for the construction of a subway extension which may never mateialize, in the meantime we could have been adjusting and adapting to modern solutions like building a fleet/series of ELRT hybrid technology across the city landscape.

I don't know why you think this network will be so cheap and easy. The TTC has proposed spending over half a billion dollars to upgrade the SRT, and even a bare bones city-wide network of LRT of any sort will cost much, much more.

 

[socialwoe]

I don't know why you think this network will be so cheap and easy. The TTC has proposed spending over half a billion dollars to upgrade the SRT, and even a bare bones city-wide network of LRT of any sort will cost much, much more.

So what exactly do you propose we do then? It seems you're too content if what we have (which is nothing) and is unwilling to entertain philosophies other than your own about how to rectify the very possible reality your beloved STC will go without anything greater than express buses for the indefinite future. 500 million is alot yes and could go towards several projects (Sherway, Queen, DRL, Eglinton, Centrepoint) but it's not alot in constrast to upwards 2 billion a subway would cost and comprise several negatives I've previously listed. I think extension/expansion is a far more important issue than which technology gets you there. If SRT was ran more frequently, 2 tracks restored to Kennedy and once again the possibility of relocating the station undrground it would be more efficient and reliable. Even an additional car could be added to trains if capacity's a problem.

 

[unimaginative2]

Honestly, you really don't read anything anybody says. His whole point is that the RT refurbishment will cost over $500 million, compared to $1.2 billion for a subway replacement, a figure that you would be aware of if you had read the report on the SRT before claiming to know all that is needed for Toronto transit.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

500 million is alot yes and could go towards several projects (Sherway, Queen, DRL, Eglinton, Centrepoint) but it's not alot in constrast to upwards 2 billion a subway would cost and comprise several negatives I've previously listed.

Oh socialwoe read the SRT report, that's why he's fallen hook, line, and sinker for the idea that $500M "leaves money available for other projects" while $1.2B "preempts other projects," as if there's exactly $1B lying around waiting to be spent.

 

[down on the upside]

platform screen doors (since the trains stop at almost exactly the same spot at each station), etc.

that would help especially for keeping the outdoor platforms warm during the winter season.

 

[socialwoe]

Oh socialwoe read the SRT report, that's why he's fallen hook, line, and sinker for the idea that $500M "leaves money available for other projects" while $1.2B "preempts other projects," as if there's exactly $1B lying around waiting to be spent.

Well in all fairness, the longer we delay on the blind notion that subway conversion is higher than probably the TTC's fifth priority, the more expensive things will cost. And for the umteenth time, I don't mind BD heading to STC, just in the same alignment run on the surface. Using the SRT only guarantees the areas beyond STC get something too, which is far mor than what your suggestion offers. I stress again not every commuter through Scarborough wants or needs STC. Giving these 000s alternatives (independently run Sheppard and Eglinton to serve the southeast bloc) only improves Scarborough transit on a larger scale.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Well in all fairness, the longer we delay on the blind notion that subway conversion is higher than probably the TTC's fifth priority, the more expensive things will cost.

Who says the TTC is right? They move like molasses and have the creativity of a block of cement. It's not like light rail costs aren't going up, either. $500M+ is a ridiculous amount of money to waste on an SRT "upgrade" when an infinitely better option costs only slightly more than double.

And for the umteenth time, I don't mind BD heading to STC, just in the same alignment run on the surface.

And again, there's absolutely no reason why it must go along that alignment. Maybe it's better than going through Brimley & Lawrence where there's nothing but bungalows, but the Brimley & Lawrence option would be cheaper and more direct to STC...and most people use the RT to go downtown from STC. The McCowan alignment may also serve more people better than the RT alignment (STC passengers + 54 transfers; those two groups make up almost the entire ridership), not to mention it'll be able to utilize the existing Kennedy station as is. Midland and Ellesmere stations are expendable, especially since an extended Sheppard subway would have stops very close by.

Using the SRT only guarantees the areas beyond STC get something too, which is far mor than what your suggestion offers.

Using SRT guarantees them nothing but an additional transfer and all the other wonderful quirks of the RT. The $500M+ does not include extensions beyond STC. If extended, the SRT replacement will probably end up costing about as much as a subway extension, only Scarborough residents will get a superior technology and the respect that a serious investment brings after a generation of disrespect.

When you say "beyond STC" you mean Malvern, yet less than half of the RT's riders end up in Malvern and building rapid transit there is a slap in the face to people in Milliken and along Ellesmere, none of whom benefit in the slightest from rapid transit to Malvern that will be criminally underused. The Milliken area has over 100,000 people, Malvern has 60,000...does Malvern deserve rapid transit more than other larger areas because they're "underprivileged"?

I stress again not every commuter through Scarborough wants or needs STC.

You're just so stupidly obtuse. The RT replacement process doesn't affect anyone south of Eglinton or west of Kennedy. For everyone from Midland to UTSC, including all of Malvern, a route that goes through STC is the most direct path to downtown via the TTC. For those not going downtown, the hub at STC gives them the opportunity to transfer to a dozen other bus routes, or the ability to get to the only real mall in Scarborough. It's called Scarborough Town Centre for a reason.

Giving these 000s alternatives (independently run Sheppard and Eglinton to serve the southeast bloc) only improves Scarborough transit on a larger scale.

The Sheppard line must go to STC, not to Malvern...as if there's enough demand coming out of Malvern for two subways :lol Eglinton has nothing to do with it...when you start pondering RTs on Eglinton and Sheppard, too, you're looking at billions of dollars in capital costs, far more than a single subway extension to STC. Why are you pretending that this city will take the $1.2B from the subway extension and spend it elsewhere?

Many areas of Scarborough will have to be content with improved bus service because that's all they will ever be able to support...some areas are just too far out, are too low density, and have too many parks to support rapid transit. Why should this city go crazy trying to accommodate "thousands" of riders when neighbourhoods with tens of thousands of riders are being ignored? The minority is the exact group of people that doesn't matter when it comes to rapid transit planning...give them a few express bus options; sorry, that's all they deserve.

 

[unimaginative2]

The Milliken area has over 100,000 people, Malvern has 60,000...does Malvern deserve rapid transit more than other larger areas because they're "underprivileged"?

No, it's because he's heard of Malvern and hasn't heard of any other neighbourhoods in Scarborough.

I would bet that travel times from Malvern to downtown would be much better with a subway extension to Scarborough Centre and an express bus than they would be with an RT extension to Sheppard and Markham.

The RT renovation makes no sense. It costs 50% as much as the subway option, yet the city will have to pay for all of it as far as I can tell. There's no way higher levels of government will pay for a refurbishment project like that. If the city pushed hard enough, it's conceivable that they could've gotten the province to pay for some of a new subway line.

 

[socialwoe]

Who says the TTC is right? They move like molasses and have the creativity of a block of cement. It's not like light rail costs aren't going up, either. $500M+ is a ridiculous amount of money to waste on an SRT "upgrade" when an infinitely better option costs only slightly more than double.

So you'd rather wait for those funds to materialize meanwhile when the current system goes obcelete in 2015 there'll be no direct mass transit link to the STC for an indefinite amount of years as a result of rejecting the SRT now? Or put foolish pride aside and do what's in the best interest of everyone.

And again, there's absolutely no reason why it must go along that alignment. Maybe it's better than going through Brimley & Lawrence where there's nothing but bungalows, but the Brimley & Lawrence option would be cheaper and more direct to STC...and most people use the RT to go downtown from STC.

If the TTC already owns the property why would they go through the hassle of acquiring the lands of others? No matter what you say, you can't convince me the houses, yes houses, that lie in the diagonal path from Kennedy to STC won't have to be bulldozed for the subway. Why you think only parking spaces, not buildings are over the path of BD? Also what a bigger waste of money it'd be to throw away 22 years worth of history not to mention to have to build stations and tunnels from scratch.

The McCowan alignment may also serve more people better than the RT alignment (STC passengers + 54 transfers; those two groups make up almost the entire ridership), not to mention it'll be able to utilize the existing Kennedy station as is.

Yes the 54 reaching the subway sooner would benefit someone from Rouge Hill but this also would obliverate any chance of a Morningside/Lawrence subway since the TTC is only so gracious to find excuses not to build anything.

Midland and Ellesmere stations are expendable, especially since an extended Sheppard subway would have stops very close by.

The problem with Ellesmere/Midland is the split of passengers between the two. Kennedy Commons, Kennedy factory outlet zone and Ellesmere Station/Mondeo neighbourhoods are big enough draws to fill a platform easily but why would people want to walk a half-concession to access RT? Diverting directly to the intersection would help some. Elimination of the Ellesmere area stops only placates into the STC-bound Sheppard proposal.

Using SRT guarantees them nothing but an additional transfer and all the other wonderful quirks of the RT. The $500M+ does not include extensions beyond STC.

The transfer's wouldn't be such a big deal if it were closer and more reliable. Walk-times and wait-times are the clincher. If what you're saying is that we'd get twice the mileage of mass transit with RT while subway is just a reboot of what we already got then what in the grand scheme of things is of greater detriment: expanding the system or keeping as is only with a few extra kms of subway that'd actually detract some of the accessibility we already have?

If extended, the SRT replacement will probably end up costing about as much as a subway extension, only Scarborough residents will get a superior technology and the respect that a serious investment brings after a generation of disrespect.

A generation of disrespect when the STC at the time was just a vacant lot? No wonder you think VCC will be a winner! Respect for Scarborough would be decentralization of investments, consolidating all developments in STC is why you object to the other nodal zones getting subways/RTs of their own. Eglinton-Lawrence has potential as does Sheppard East.

When you say "beyond STC" you mean Malvern, yet less than half of the RT's riders end up in Malvern and building rapid transit there is a slap in the face to people in Milliken and along Ellesmere, none of whom benefit in the slightest from rapid transit to Malvern that will be criminally underused. The Milliken area has over 100,000 people, Malvern has 60,000...does Malvern deserve rapid transit more than other larger areas because they're "underprivileged"?

Facts:
-9 routes head into Malvern, 4 of which originate from STC.
-Miliken has several existing options and potential McCowan
North Stn and Finch Hydro streetcars (thanks Doady!) to
connect them.
-Malvern's geopolitical importance as the cut-off NE corner of
the city, surpasses present-day population census as a
determining factor.
-What's exactly east of Markham on Ellesmere to warrant a
subway there? The last two remaining places of worth
(Centenary and UTSC) are covered in my plan and don't
require going through nothingness to get there (see in spite
of your charge that my version goes through parkland, my
path via Morningside bridge allows for a natural opening
through which the subway can jut out towards the university
elevated way above ground, not disturbing the ecology of
the valley below).
-Not underpriviledged, underconnected as in isolated.

You're just so stupidly obtuse. The RT replacement process doesn't affect anyone south of Eglinton or west of Kennedy. For everyone from Midland to UTSC, including all of Malvern, a route that goes through STC is the most direct path to downtown via the TTC.

An Eglinton Line would hit those nodes. I guess one definite plus for the STC subway is that it frees Upper Kennedy up for a new ELRT. Otherwise, how are two lines that run closer to the northern and southern summits of Scarborough (if we choose to look at the borough as a grid) and consist of less stops than BD hence will run faster, not get commuters downtown sooner?

For those not going downtown, the hub at STC gives them the opportunity to transfer to a dozen other bus routes, or the ability to get to the only real mall in Scarborough. It's called Scarborough Town Centre for a reason.

They'd have to transfer onto YUS anyway but by diversifying the distribution someone living at say Old Finch and Morningview would reach CBD 25 mins quicker if the line was extended into Malvern. Nothing for east-of-McCowan commuters when it's warranted and wanted, supplimenting trains for go-slow buses is the stupidly obtuse notion! Oh and I know people who use STC everyday and only have been inside the mall once or twice a year.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

So you'd rather wait for those funds to materialize

The city does not have $500 million to spend, so, yes, we might as well try for $1.2 billion. If we're gonna sell our soul for this thing, we might as well do it for something that's in our best interest and that the people of Scarborough deserve.

If the TTC already owns the property why would they go through the hassle of acquiring the lands of others?

No matter what you say, you can't convince me the houses, yes houses, that lie in the diagonal path from Kennedy to STC won't have to be bulldozed for the subway.

Why would houses need to be bought and demolished if the subway is tunnelled? There's not a snowball's chance in hell that an elevated subway will be allowed through Thomson Park. Anyway, the subway can't run through that ex-rail corridor - Kennedy's station's alignment makes it awkward and the corridor doesn't even go to STC.

Why you think only parking spaces, not buildings are over the path of BD?

No buildings, huh? Sure you don't want to rethink that one?

Also what a bigger waste of money it'd be to throw away 22 years worth of history not to mention to have to build stations and tunnels from scratch.

No, the biggest waste of money would be to spend over half a billion on dollars on something that could be at capacity on opening day and may itself require replacement another few decades down the road...no one wins in this scenario.

Yes the 54 reaching the subway sooner would benefit someone from Rouge Hill but this also would obliverate any chance of a Morningside/Lawrence subway since the TTC is only so gracious to find excuses not to build anything.

There will never be a Morningside/Lawrence subway.

The problem with Ellesmere/Midland is the split of passengers between the two.

I TOLD YOU THAT. You're the one that thought both stations were useless earlier on in the thread...don't pretend to be an expert, you've probably never used either. Yet, both are expendable since the Sheppard subway will have a stop very close to Midland and the Ellesmere bus can stop at STC.

Elimination of the Ellesmere area stops only placates into the STC-bound Sheppard proposal.

It's not your stupid ideas that amuse us the most, it's the little phrases you invent...it's like I've been asleep for three hundred years and the language has evolved without me.

A generation of disrespect when the STC at the time was just a vacant lot? No wonder you think VCC will be a winner! Respect for Scarborough would be decentralization of investments, consolidating all developments in STC is why you object to the other nodal zones getting subways/RTs of their own. Eglinton-Lawrence has potential as does Sheppard East.

The Vaughan extension is on your map, so either shut up about it or take it off. STC opened 12 years before the RT started running...oops, there goes your argument...it's deflating...bye bye! A Sheppard line east of Markham has effectively zero potential, while a Lawrence East subway has no potential.

-9 routes head into Malvern, 4 of which originate from STC.

Most ridership on the Finch East, Markham, Morningside, and Meadowvale routes does not come from Malvern. Of the 4 that go to STC, they have riderships of 9400 (some of this comes from outside Malvern, though), 8400, 6200 (again, some from outside Malvern), and 2100. In what universe does a ridership of less than 25,000 deserve a subway even though they're sitting on a future GO line that goes straight downtown? Oh yeah, the TTC's universe!

-Malvern's geopolitical importance as the cut-off NE corner of the city, surpasses present-day population census as a determining factor

Ooo...I didn't think I'd have to contend with advanced geopolitical theory. And the 75,000 figure was a projected future population for the entire ward.

Oh and I know people who use STC everyday and only have been inside the mall once or twice a year.

I know someone that wasted an afternoon making a terrible subway fantasy map.

 

[EnviroTO]

Oh and I know people who use STC everyday and only have been inside the mall once or twice a year.

I know someone that wasted an afternoon making a terrible subway fantasy map.

I can do better than that. I know two people who have bickered back and forth for weeks if not months about something which is completely irrelevant.