[Palma]

Re the term "surface subway", we kind of already have that in Toronto: the subway is on the surface in many areas (Davisville, Rosedale, High Park)

And north of Eglinton on the Spadina line all the way to Wilson subway (thats 4 consecutive stops).

 

[W. K. Lis]

Technically, they are RT stations, not subway stations. However, McCowan, Midland, and Ellesmere stations on the 3 Scarborough RT are listed among the least used TTC stations. Bessarion on the 4 Sheppard line and Old Mill on the 2 Bloor-Danforth line are also listed.

With three out of the six stations on the 3 Scarborough RT being considered least used, I can't understand why they want to replace it with a higher capacity subway?

See this link for the article.

 

[nfitz]

With three out of the six stations on the 3 Scarborough RT being considered least used, I can't understand why they want to replace it with a higher capacity subway?

Because the demand alone from Scarborough Centre exceeds the capacity of the SRT line. So something has to be done. By converting to subway, the existing 5 stations become 2, and I don't think either would be on the list of bottom 5 stations. (Scarborough Centre-McCowan has a huge demand, and Lawrence East would be by a busy hospital). I don't think the 3rd station (the terminus at McCowan-Sheppard) would be that low either.

 

[BurlOak]

Technically, they are RT stations, not subway stations. However, McCowan, Midland, and Ellesmere stations on the 3 Scarborough RT are listed among the least used TTC stations. Bessarion on the 4 Sheppard line and Old Mill on the 2 Bloor-Danforth line are also listed.

With three out of the six stations on the 3 Scarborough RT being considered least used, I can't understand why they want to replace it with a higher capacity subway?

See this link for the article.

My reading was that is was quite impressive that only 1 Sheppard line station made the list, even though they have only had 10 years to build ridership. B-D has had 40 years and still has one station on the list.

The SRT is a different technology with a forced transfer, so it is not a fair comparison. When the ECLRT comes on line, will those stops count towards the list of low ridership locations?

 

[RogerB]

Because the demand alone from Scarborough Centre exceeds the capacity of the SRT line.

This is a myth.
The reason the SRT has to be closed is due to Bombardier's manufactured obsolescence. When it invented the Mark2, it discontinued the Mark1 vehicles. Since then, Toronto and other cities, have never been able to order Mark1 from Bombardier at an affordable price. Bombardier prefers to sell Mark2', and as a linear induction system builder, lobbied Toronto and others to have it rebuild the tracks for Mark2, at great cost. Thankfully saner heads finally prevailed.
Like LRT, the linear induction vehicles had the capacity to handle demand long into the future, particularly considering that the optimistic job projections for Scarborough Centre never arrived. Beware proprietary systems.

 

[nfitz]

This is a myth.

Has been beyond capacity for some time.

Need longer vehicles and stations. More vehicles would help, but it's only a stop-gap solution.

Nothing has stopped TTC issuing a tender for new Mark 1 vehicles. TTC has never been interested in playing hardball with Bombardier on this. If they wanted more Mark 1 vehicles, there are actions they could taken.

And even then, they could have proceeded with their original plan, simply converted the tunnel/curve, and lengthened the stations. Where this got expensive, was the insistence of including the extension to Sheppard, and the rebuild of Kennedy - both of which vastly exceed the rebuild cost for the rest of the line (be it Skytrain or LRT).

 

[rbt]

Has been beyond capacity for some time.

Kinda and kinda not.

If TTC happened to have more Mark 1 trains on hand, there is still plenty of track time available to run them on most days (snow/ice storms bring challenges).

Which is to say, if Mark 1 trains were being manufactured at a reasonable price TTC would most likely expand the yard and order/run twice as many trains as they currently do. The SLRT would be in good shape capacity wise for another 20 to 30 years.


Of course, since modifications are required, we might as well get onto rolling stock available from multiple vendors.

 

[howl]

I thought the problem with the SRT was the elevated portions of the track need to be torn down and replaced (same problem as the Gardiner).

 

[rbt]

I thought the problem with the SRT was the elevated portions of the track need to be torn down and replaced (same problem as the Gardiner).

No. They could use some repair which may require a temporary slow order in sections (think Keele bridge repairs) but this is not the driver for a multi-year rebuild and change of rolling stock.

If the subway replaces it then the old SRT needs to be demolished, including filling the tunnel. If the current tunnel is adjusted to accommodate LRVs or Mark II's then it becomes feasible to do a much more invasive overhaul of other components with a lower annual maintenance cost going forward.

 

[BurlOak]

I thought the problem with the SRT was the elevated portions of the track need to be torn down and replaced (same problem as the Gardiner).

Road salt is the key. The SRT is not salted, and it is high enough above the road that salt splash is not a concern. It was also built 25 years after the Gardiner when concrete quality was better.

I am not sure if the track needs to be torn down because the LRT's are heavier (kind of funny that light rail is too heavy) and the structural capacity is not adequate, but not the same reason as the Gardiner.

 

[RogerB]

Torn down

Road salt is the key. The SRT is not salted, and it is high enough above the road that salt splash is not a concern. It was also built 25 years after the Gardiner when concrete quality was better.

I am not sure if the track needs to be torn down because the LRT's are heavier (kind of funny that light rail is too heavy) and the structural capacity is not adequate, but not the same reason as the Gardiner.

The linear induction tracks and tunnel needed to go and stations would have required a grade adjustment. The LRT had planned to use existing infrastructure such as the elevated structure, but study is shifting to the subway extension. The local Councillor wants to keep the raised tracks, which he proposes to turn into Scarborough's High Line.

 

[MrsNesbitt]

The linear induction tracks and tunnel needed to go and stations would have required a grade adjustment. The LRT had planned to use existing infrastructure such as the elevated structure, but study is shifting to the subway extension. The local Councillor wants to keep the raised tracks, which he proposes to turn into Scarborough's High Line.

I doubt that they'll be kept. I'll be glad once they pull out the tracks in the north-south portion of the line, from Kennedy to Ellesmere/Midland, because the Stouffville GO line could really use the extra space in the corridor for double-tracking and electrification. I may be a fan of the LRT as opposed to the subway myself, but the subway will really make for a better situation for implementing GO RER.

 

[salsa]

I doubt that they'll be kept. I'll be glad once they pull out the tracks in the north-south portion of the line, from Kennedy to Ellesmere/Midland, because the Stouffville GO line could really use the extra space in the corridor for double-tracking and electrification. I may be a fan of the LRT as opposed to the subway myself, but the subway will really make for a better situation for implementing GO RER.

According to Steve Munro, there is enough space for GO corridor expansion even with the LRT.

 

[animatronic]

Request for Proposal Call number: 9119-14-7180
Commodity: Professional Services, Consulting Services
Description: Scarborough Subway Extension Public Consultation Services
The purpose of this RFP is to select a qualified consultant with expertise in communications and public consultation, who will be responsible for assisting the City/ Toronto Transit Commission (hereafter referred to as "TTC") in developing and implementing a communications and consultation plan and program to support the Scarborough Subway Extension Project Assessment and associated Transit Project Assessment Process (TPAP). The consultant (hereafter referred to as the "Vendor") will be working extensively with an engineering/planning consultant who will be leading the project assessment, composing the Environmental Project Report and TPAP for this rapid transit project.

For purposes of providing a context for anticipated resource needs, it is estimated this study will cost in the range of $250,000 to $325,000, excluding HST. Please note this amount is only an approximation and does not reflect the total amount that will be paid to any Vendor. This range is for information only and should not form the basis of any submission. Competitive costing shall be an integral component of the proposal evaluation and selection of the Vendor.

The ideal Vendor will consist of a team of visionary and qualified professionals. The successful Vendor will have a Public Consultation Expert who will act as the Study Project Lead and will lead a team of professionals with demonstrated experience and expertise in consultation and communications (specifically in, public relations, stakeholder relations, issues management, facilitation, web development, social media, videography, branding and graphic design).

The successful Vendor must demonstrate experience in designing and implementing extensive and robust communications and consultation programs:

a) For transportation planning projects;

b) For complex and contentious infrastructure projects of a similar scope; and

c) Using a diverse approach of online consultation, community outreach, stakeholder engagement and live events.

Demonstrated experience in consultation on projects involving land use planning, urban design and community services and facilities is an asset.

This contract is expected to commence in the last quarter of 2014 and is expected to be completed by end of the third quarter of 2016.
Issue date: August 29, 2014 Closing date: September 19, 2014
at 12:00 Noon

Scope of work:
The Vendor will undertake the necessary work and analysis, including at a minimum the tasks outlined in this RFP, to develop and deliver a robust, collaborative and transparent Public Consultation Plan and program for the Scarborough Subway Extension that fosters buy-in from a wide range of stakeholders and the public. The scope of work and requirements are set out in the following sections below. The Vendor will work in close coordination with City/TTC staff along with the project assessment consultant on all study phases and the TPAP. The findings and conclusions of the public engagement program developed and carried out by the Vendor will be a significant component for the final Environmental Project Report that will be prepared for the Scarborough Subway Extension Environmental Assessment.

City Planning and TTC staff are compiling information about the Study Area and its broader context to assist the project assessment and complementary public consultation program. This profile will include information such as but not limited to the planning context, transportation network, community services and facilities, and, current and future population and employment information. This profile will be provided to the Vendor at the start of the study contract.

3.2 Study Management

The City and TTC will have a team working on the Study, led by the City Planning Division. The study team will be led by the Director of Transportation Planning and designated project staff from the City Planning Division with support from the TTC. City/TTC staff will work closely with the Vendor’s Project Lead to agree on an approach and schedule for the project and to ensure the study is completed in accordance with this RFP. The strategic oversight for the project assessment and public consultation program will be provided by the Toronto -TTC Executive Committee comprising membership of the City Manager, Deputy City Manager and the CEO of the Toronto Transit Commission.

The Vendor should have a Public Consultant Expert who will act as a Project Lead to manage the Communications and Public Consultation team and act as the primary liaison with the City's Project Lead and designated City/TTC staff. The Vendor’s Project Lead will ensure the work of each discipline required for the study meets the requirements set out in this RFP. The Vendor’s Project Lead will also be required to coordinate the work program of the communications and consultation consultant team with the project assessment consultant to ensure the exchange of information and outcomes are comprehensive and integrated to meet the consultation requirements of the environmental assessment process.

 

[dowlingm]

According to Steve Munro, there is enough space for GO corridor expansion even with the LRT.

maybe, but it would be simpler not to have them there. More room to spread out, less EMI to worry about from the LRT power and signals gear. Maybe have a 3 track layout with the easternmost staying non-electric to simplify serving industrial spurs while minimizing switches on the two main lines.