[Rainforest]

Those demand numbers. Fungible. Especially when you consider GO RER and/or SmartTrack. So much of that peak demand is core bound. What happens when you offer them a commute on GO RER with 20-30 minute savings?

The existing demand is > 5,000 at peak (SRT cannot even carry all of it, and TTC is forced to run express buses between Scarborough centre and Kennedy just to relief SRT). So, I would not call 8,000 an overestmate.

Regarding the shift to GO RER or SmartTrack, the rail corridors need massive investments in order to add capacity in order to accept enough new riders. TTC will not commit to replacing the fully grade-separate SRT with an at-grade McCowan LRT if the amount of riders diverted to GO is uncertain.

I believe that it will either be the subway, or we go back to the fully grade-separate SLRT, which has no other place to run but in the Uxbridge Sub corridor.

Besides, I thought at-grade LRT could handle that kind of demand. Heck, they go all bus today when the RT breaks down and somehow manage.

Maybe it can, if there is a way to run 3-car trainsets (design capacity = 450) at grade. It will take 18 trains an hour to reach 8,000 K; the headway will be a bit over 3 min. Probably doable, but no room for further growth.

If 2-car trainsets (design capacity = 300) is all they can run, then they would need 27 trainset an hour running at 2'10'' headways. I don't believe this is sustainable.

They replace with buses everything that breaks, even Yonge subway. Does not mean those buses achieve anything close to 8,000 per hour throughput. They carry as many people as they can; other people just wait until the subway service resumes, or find an alternative route.

 

[Duck]

If 2-car trainsets (design capacity = 300) is all they can run, then they would need 27 trainset an hour running at 2'10'' headways. I don't believe this is sustainable.

I've personally watched Vancouver's SkyTrain run at <1 minute headways - getting off a train at a station, watching it leave, and before the last car has cleared the platform the next one is coming in. It's crazy what ICTS can actually do, but doesn't in Toronto for whatever reason.

 

[nfitz]

It's crazy what ICTS can actually do, but doesn't in Toronto for whatever reason.

The only reason it doesn't in Toronto is not enough trainsets.

 

[innsertnamehere]

^ yup, ridership on the SRT is severely limited by capacity. 37,000 people a day use, I bet that number would be more than 50,000 if they had the actual train sets to provide that capacity.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

View attachment 60785



Bingo. Despite subway being unnecessary if the merged "Scarborough-Eglinton Crosstown" was still on the table and happening, this is exactly why when you come across data such as this, it's hard not to see the other point of view on this matter.

Subways in York region are being build & planned with the slogan "Build it and they'll come" which is something a certain Rob Ford used to say. Granted there are other factors explaining that, it's hard not to see residents of Scarborough resentment on the matter.

I've seen many comments making fun of Scarborough residents, editorials that are pro subway etc... and some of those comments are really not nice at all.

Instead of blaming and making fun of these residents that wants a subway instead of the LRT, I'd like to see more blame going towards the REAL responsibles of this mess. Anti-LRT residents, Pro-Subway activists are the SYMPTOMS. The ROOT of the problem lies with TTC & City Council who failed Scarborough for decades on the transport file.

Forget about technology (London's DLR and Vancouver Skytrain are a success)
-If the RT was built on the right corridor from the get go
-If Kennedy station was build the right way from the get go
-If the RT was properly maintained and not abandoned to ruin

We wouldn't be talking about this. The RT would be like the Skytrain and we would be talking expansion at a fraction of the price.

Not living in Scarborough, but I can 100% understand where the resentment comes from and why they aren't as quick to trust city hall and TTC on the LRT as they once did for the RT.

Those that mean that they deserve only a subway? Not necessarily.
Are they too blame for not trusting TTC and Toronto while demanding subways? I don't believe so and it's quite logical and understandable.

Is City Hall & TTC the true culprit of this PR and planning nightmare? ABSOLUTELY
This is their mess that will cost all of us. They have the responsibility to fix it and they did have that opportunity with the proposed "Scarborough-Eglinton Crosstown". Unfortunately, City Hall killed it because they didn't like who was pitching it (Rob Ford)...led by someone's inflated ego & ambition (Karen Stinz).

That right there was the major blow to LRT in Scarborough because I don't recall that area opposing that plan. Since it died, it was back to "Subways, Subways, Subways"

I said my piece on the matter.

The reason the ESCLRT was killed was largely because it provided less rapid transit for more money. We would've likely ended up with the EC + FE + SELRT plan regardless of who was leading council.

 

[ssiguy2]

Why doesn't Toronto just fix the small tunnel and bend and buy new MK111 trains and save itself a couple billion? This whole discussion is ridiculous and only in Toronto would it even happen. Make the Eglinton LRT a ART system and a solid thru route from STC to Eglinton West. The amount they save on their dinky little subway station could easily build an elevated corridor along Eglinton East.

This is what Metrolinx had in mind before Miller came up with his LRT-or-nothing plan. SkyTrain is NOT proprietary as the Kuala Lumpur ART is sending out bids for it's Bombardier SkyTrain with several different companies bidding. Also Sapporo just opened a new LIM ART system and Sapporo is colder and gets more than twice the snow that Toronto gets.

 

[coffey1]

Why doesn't Toronto just fix the small tunnel and bend and buy new MK111 trains and save itself a couple billion? This whole discussion is ridiculous and only in Toronto would it even happen. Make the Eglinton LRT a ART system and a solid thru route from STC to Eglinton West. The amount they save on their dinky little subway station could easily build an elevated corridor along Eglinton East.

This is what Metrolinx had in mind before Miller came up with his LRT-or-nothing plan. SkyTrain is NOT proprietary as the Kuala Lumpur ART is sending out bids for it's Bombardier SkyTrain with several different companies bidding. Also Sapporo just opened a new LIM ART system and Sapporo is colder and gets more than twice the snow that Toronto gets.

You mean to say it's not only Rob Ford's fault as the partisan folks at the Star tell us? (Oddly enough..I also believe Ford supported something similar to this at one point)

Even then we need to stop focusing on building ONE line & build a network that integrates fairly & is extensive to benefit for the majority of Toronto commuters. Sheppard needs to be addressed, & the SMLRT should be a higher priority. Otherwise it will certainly be tough to get the disenfranchised commuters off of the Subway vote.

 

[ssiguy2]

For all those who think that the TTC can't shut down for 5 years to redo the track and hence will have to build something new anyway, well there is this little think called reality that gets in the way of that argument.

Vancouver has just finished a 3 year total replacement of the Expo SkyTrain system which only required partial shutdowns {SkyTrain was still running but on alternate tracks on Sunday evenings} and the work was also done during the slower summer months overnight. That's right, they managed to redo the entire 34 km of the Expo line without shutting down the system yet somehow it's going to take the TTC 5 years of complete shutdown to redo a whopping 7 km of a line that carries a fraction of the number of passengers as Vancouver's Expo Line.

I guess the fact that the SRT can easily be fixed at a mere fraction of the cost of a new subway or even LRT replacement is the TTC's "inconvenient truth".

 

[nfitz]

Where is this 5-year shut-down coming from? The shut-down to extend the stations and modify the tunnel and track to run newer Mark III equipment was estimated in months, not years. It was somewhat longer for conversion to LRT - but even then, I think it was closer to 2 years, not 5.

What's the reference for the 5-year shutdown?

 

[kEiThZ]

The shutdown, when it comes, will be a massive political liability to half the sitting politicians in Scarborough. That's why they jumped on the subway bandwagon. It's also why I find it odd that the Liberals then changed the LRT to a subway extension via the same corridor, necessitating the shut down anyway. At that point, you might as well go LRT.

I find the Liberals really conflicted here. They don't seem all that gung ho about the subway. But they don't want to bite the bullet and eat a multi-year shutdown either. And now, with the SELRT stalled too, they don't even have a path to divert the northern half of Scarborough. They dropped the ball, even in terms of politics.

 

[BurlOak]

Where is this 5-year shut-down coming from? The shut-down to extend the stations and modify the tunnel and track to run newer Mark III equipment was estimated in months, not years. It was somewhat longer for conversion to LRT - but even then, I think it was closer to 2 years, not 5.

What's the reference for the 5-year shutdown?

I remembered 8 months for SRT upgrade to mark II, and 3 to 4 years for LRT conversion. But a quick search found this.

"The length of a shutdown for reconstruction of the SRT along the same right-of-way has been cited at various lengths ranging from 3 to 5 years. "

http://stevemunro.ca/2013/05/07/a-few-delicate-questions-about-the-scarborough-subway/

 

[nfitz]

I remembered 8 months for SRT upgrade to mark II, and 3 to 4 years for LRT conversion. But a quick search found this.

"The length of a shutdown for reconstruction of the SRT along the same right-of-way has been cited at various lengths ranging from 3 to 5 years. "

Thanks. The article goes onto to say that Metrolinx assured that it would be for no longer than 3 years for the LRT conversion, and hopefully less, with encouragement to the contractor to find ways to reduce the shutdown period. It then says the 5-year period is what is claimed by those trying to build a subway.

So why repeat clearly false propaganda?

 

[44 North]

The shutdown, when it comes, will be a massive political liability to half the sitting politicians in Scarborough. That's why they jumped on the subway bandwagon. It's also why I find it odd that the Liberals then changed the LRT to a subway extension via the same corridor, necessitating the shut down anyway. At that point, you might as well go LRT.

I find the Liberals really conflicted here. They don't seem all that gung ho about the subway. But they don't want to bite the bullet and eat a multi-year shutdown either. And now, with the SELRT stalled too, they don't even have a path to divert the northern half of Scarborough. They dropped the ball, even in terms of politics.

The point I bolded about Glen Murray's SRT alignment subway is an interesting one. I remember being very surprised at the time because it seemed like it was common knowledge (or at least for those that read Steve Munro) that such a proposal wouldn't work due to the alignment at Kennedy. And like you said, it would also necessitate an LRT shutdown anyway. So why was it proposed?

 

[coffey1]

The point I bolded about Glen Murray's SRT alignment subway is an interesting one. I remember being very surprised at the time because it seemed like it was common knowledge (or at least for those that read Steve Munro) that such a proposal wouldn't work due to the alignment at Kennedy. And like you said, it would also necessitate an LRT shutdown anyway. So why was it proposed?

The Liberals were still scrambling at that time. There weren't interested in discussing Scarborough transit but then realized there was a bi-election coming up soon after. So then they joined the fun & Mitzie Hunter campaigned on being the" subway champion".

So we have Liberals flip-flopping from the donkey's on the left trying to push poorly integrated patch lines on Scarborough vs. donkey's on the right pushing for subways. When the reality is there is ways to integrate both Sheppard & RT lines without a transfer & now have some money left to start the SMLRT.

It's really not that hard to build something useful with the resources now available.

 

[W. K. Lis]

If the Japanese can lower a station in one day...

...we can do ALL the SRT stations in a month... ...not.