[44 North]

The Schabas plan is exactly the type of compromise plan that should have been pursued. IIRC, cost wise the "Scarborough Subway" was equivalent in cost to a Wye Proposal along with an elevated Eglinton line.

There were a few details I did not agree with.

1. He had the line going above highway 404. Due to the depth of the Don Mills Station, the grade to highway 404, and the proximity, it had to go under 404 similar to the LRT and Subway extension plans.
2. I would have continued the line elevated along Sheppard to Agincourt. From there is could curve south toward Midland Station. I guess you could keep 401 in your pocket in case there is resistance, but I am quite sure that residents along that stretch would quickly support an elevated line when they realized the option is a detour along 401 and not underground through their neighbourhood.
3. I don't think Schabas had enough detail, but I sketched it out and I think the Agincourt Branch would not stop at Midland Station. The southerly branch could still stop at Midland, or it could be abandoned. I think I had an option of coming down Midland, or going along the Markham GO and West Highland Creek.
4. I would extend the terminus to Morningside/Finch if a Crosstown GO ever becomes reality.
5. I also considered a (future) branch from Centennial to UTSC.
6. If the SRT stops at Kennedy and is not connected to the Eglinton line, it would be a bit over $1B to extend the subway along Eglinton to meet the LSE GO and future Kingston Road BRT.

Well there's no question for me that light metro technology can be extremely appropriate for certain post-war suburban environs, and that one of the reasons it was dreamt up was to fill the niche between streetcars and ungodly expensive heavy rail subways. But is it better than in-median LRT or heavy rail subways? All have merits, all have drawbacks.

One of the biggest issues with such a system is incompatibility or proprietary-ness. Though one recurring idea I've had is to use the Flexity LRV for this kind of system, but as a stripped-down version of its street-running counterpart. This could reduce weight, reduce vehicle costs, reduce operating costs, possibly allow for 3rd rail power - but still permit the vehicles to share parts/shops with the standard Flexity. I'm not a mechanical engineer or train guy, but I believe that if the Flexity underwent this kind of reverse-engineering then the SRT's elevated guideway would not have to rebuilt (which is probably one of the costliest components of its conversion for LRVs).

Obviously the vehicle would be 'orphan' when compared with the rest of TTC's future fleet, but considerably less orphan than if it were MkI or II, or some newly bought manufacturer's trains.

The choice is simple if you ask me. Should we be building transit lines that serve neighbourhoods?

Or transit lines that run next to highways and industrial parks?

This proposal represents one the worst aspects of the SRT that nobody likes (which is the alignment), and doubles down on it. Hardly anyone lives next to any the new stations, there are no city-building or streetscape improvement opportunities, it doesn't connect to the Stouffville line, and there are limited redevelopment opportunities. The only good thing that can be said is that it's a faster trip between Yonge & STC, but on the occasions when I have to make such a trip, the GO bus will always be the fastest option.

No doubt. And I don't agree really with Schab's idea of running it over the 401. I guess I wanted to gauge opinion from Kiethz and Coffey1 if Scarboro were willing to sacrifice optimal location of service that comes with a disjointed LRT plan for something that offers more integration and subway-like speed/reliability that comes with light metro technology. If hypothetically Toronto planners worked off this plan I think they'd inevitably support keeping the line on Sheppard between Don Mills and Kennedy (albeit with the added cost/headache of trying to push through a system designed to be most cost-effective when not underground).

Somewhat related, but I think all these plans seem to point to an overall underlying problem with Scarb transit planning. That is, trying to make the whole thing work (while keeping the SRT's original alignment and STC's oddball location). It's a real challenge - whether with subway or light rail. This I think speaks to the problems of servicing an inorganic centre. Whether it's with Sauga or SCC: if it was placed in a hard to reach location it should come as no surprise that it will be...hard to reach.

Explain to me something: Everybody always shits all over the rt because they complain that the route services nothing and goes through an industrial wasteland.

The route was picked long before the technology ever was. It would have been just as shitty if it was streetcars running along it.

So who picked the route? Why is it so bad? Did people bitch in 1985?

People most definitely did complain in 1985. I think one big problem was accessibility for those with mobility issues. On Steve Munro or TransitToronto there are some scanned articles about its inauguration, which I believe have comments from Scarboro residents/politicians about why they don't like the plan.

Prior to ICTS the TTC's CLRV alignment was identical I believe. Originally one or two road crossings were to be at-grade, but later studies found that elevated for the entire length was better.

 

[smallspy]

Explain to me something: Everybody always shits all over the rt because they complain that the route services nothing and goes through an industrial wasteland.

The route was picked long before the technology ever was. It would have been just as shitty if it was streetcars running along it.

So who picked the route? Why is it so bad? Did people bitch in 1985?

The route was picked because it was a cheap way to get to Scarborough Town Centre. That's all. You have to remember that the whole point of the line was simply to get people from north-eastern Scarborough that much quicker to the subway and thence downtown.

People bitched in 1985 (and earlier), but for a lot different reasons. Noise complaints from the neighbours along the south end of the line, and the fact it took so long to open (primarily due to the change in mode from streetcars to ICTS). There were certainly complaints back then that the line didn't really go anywhere of any importance, but they got drowned out by the others. Those noise complaints haven't stopped since then, although they don't get any traction in the media - they complain to their councillors and to the TTC directly.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[crs1026]

It may not even be technically feasible, but that probably is a good idea. A significant portion of WB and EB traffic on the BD line is downtown bound. The time savings for that group would outweigh the additional weight times for the smaller group BD riders who don't transfer onto the Yonge or University lines.

It'd also potentially relieve Yonge n Bloor a bit.

I'm not so sure of this (and I'm old enough to remember the original operation). The original plan failed because in analog days, the Spencer Tracy quality technology didn't work, and trains did not interleave effectively. If service on one leg got bunched, you got two or three east trains in a row before you got a west train. Transit Control had less technology available to identify and mitigate this.

What has changed, though, is the general level of crowding at all stations. Do we want people hanging around on platforms waiting for the train going their way? Now we have three routings - east, west, and north. So that could be a 3-train wait, assuming perfect interleaving (which won't happen). And - when a train comes up University, and we have collected three partial trans' worth of riders going one way on the platform, the trail will be full. When it hits St George/Bay and heads east/west, it becomes useless to people getting on beyond there. So east-west riders have to wait for a "through" bloor-danforth train....more people waiting on platforms.

Yes, it would shift transfers away from Yonge a bit - but at the expense of more trains pulling in packed. Museum station would be a zoo.

All in all, I'd say leave well enough alone.

Quite a digression for the Scarboro topic - but there you are.

- Paul

 

[coffey1]

Explain to me something: Everybody always shits all over the rt because they complain that the route services nothing and goes through an industrial wasteland.

The route was picked long before the technology ever was. It would have been just as shitty if it was streetcars running along it.

So who picked the route? Why is it so bad? Did people bitch in 1985?

They took the easy way out and ran it up beside the rail lines instead of running it through commuter areas. I agree it would be just as shitty. Time to start building things efficiently in Scarborough.

Now they tried to take the easy way out on the Sheppard LRT disaster with an already poorly designed RT. Way to go Toronto this is why we are here.

 

[robmausser]

Explain to me something: Everybody always shits all over the rt because they complain that the route services nothing and goes through an industrial wasteland.

The route was picked long before the technology ever was. It would have been just as shitty if it was streetcars running along it.

So who picked the route? Why is it so bad? Did people bitch in 1985?

Thats a question for Steve Munro.

But basically they wanted to pick a route that would mean it was off the road but not having to tunnel underground because...tada...the ridership didn't justify it.

They first had this route in mind

Which goes along a really old rail corridor.

Now its full of the backyards of houses etc, but I was told in the 1970's when this was being planned it wasn't, but it was still deemed too close to backyards.

 

[Cobra]

So much debating about technology over this line. Not saying it isn't warranted or justified. All level of governments won't go back on their decision. Like it or not, the subway is happening....judging with the fiscal direction Tory is going, Ontario Liberals campaigning with their subway champion and the Feds willing to spend.

Sorry to be blunt but all this is going nowhere.

Might as well rename the thread Scarborough Subway and move on to talk about design? architecture? bus routes? etc...

 

[kEiThZ]

I feel like we are doubling down on a mistake here. They picked a less than optimal route for the SRT. Spent a ton on grade separation. And so now we are committed to using the same corridor. And to justify using that grade separated corridor, we'll spend even more to build a grade-separated extension between Malvern and Scarborough Town Centre. If you are an LRT fan, I don't know how you can't find all this ridiculous. This runs entirely counter to the primary-benefits of LRT. At-grade operation and lower stop-spacing (compared to subways). It's applying subway like thinking to LRT design.

Look at the current SRT corridor. Trip generators (Scarborough Hospital, STC and the SC area, etc.) are all 2km east. The vast majority of ridership at most SRT stations is from bus transfers which can easily be shifted 2 km east. Seems to me that they'd be so much better off running the LRT at-grade along Danforth/McCowan from Kennedy Station to SC minimum, but possibly to Steeles. And they can serve Malvern with a spur from Sheppard. Splitting that demand will eliminate the need for grade-separation northeast of SC.

 

[kEiThZ]

So much debating about technology over this line. Not saying it isn't warranted or justified. All level of governments won't go back on their decision. Like it or not, the subway is happening....judging with the fiscal direction Tory is going, Ontario Liberals campaigning with their subway champion and the Feds willing to spend.

Sorry to be blunt but all this is going nowhere.

Might as well rename the thread Scarborough Subway and move on to talk about design? architecture? bus routes? etc...

It's funny. But I think the subway is not likely. I think everybody is starting to realize they've gotten in over their heads. Nobody has a way out though.

 

[Cobra]

It's funny. But I think the subway is not likely. I think everybody is starting to realize they've gotten in over their heads. Nobody has a way out though.

I must disagree on this. Might not be 2023 like I've seen but they aren't switching technology again. Feds won't care which technology is being used while the province already said the ship has sailed and they campaigned on it.

Let me remind everyone that the province gave Toronto 2 choices

-Province $ + City $= Subway to Sheppard
-Province $ only= Subway to STC

There was no 3rd option.

Doesn't matter if Toronto Council wants out now...they are getting a subway regardless and I doubt Ontario Conservatives will have had an "LRT epiphany" if elected. With them, it be subway or nothing...(Most likely nothing)

 

[TheTigerMaster]

It's funny. But I think the subway is not likely. I think everybody is starting to realize they've gotten in over their heads. Nobody has a way out though.

I figure there's a 25% chance we throw in the towel and cancel everything.

 

[Cobra]

I figure there's a 25% chance we throw in the towel and cancel everything.

With the pro Infrastructure Feds? Unlikely. It's option 1 or 2.
-Province $ + City $= Subway to Sheppard
-Province $ only= Subway to STC

Cancelling would be a disaster especially with the other level of governments wanting to fund transit

 

[coffey1]

Thats a question for Steve Munro.

But basically they wanted to pick a route that would mean it was off the road but not having to tunnel underground because...tada...the ridership didn't justify it.

They first had this route in mind

Which goes along a really old rail corridor.

Now its full of the backyards of houses etc, but I was told in the 1970's when this was being planned it wasn't, but it was still deemed too close to backyards.

End of the day they took the easy way out with help from a group people who's interest lie in other areas of the City. For the most part like the same group defendinga hacked in LRT patch network.

I wish we could have build a fair LRT network. But oh well. Karma hurts & i bet this subway plan pains those that have helped to create ridiculous transit in Scarborough.

If only they didnt take the easy way out. This is why were here today...

 

[TheTigerMaster]

With the pro Infrastructure Feds? Unlikely. It's option 1 or 2.
-Province $ + City $= Subway to Sheppard
-Province $ only= Subway to STC

Cancelling would be a disaster especially with the other level of governments wanting to fund transit

My previous comment was firmly tongue in cheek

 

[Cobra]

Sorry! My bad, I might not catch everything since French is my first language after all!

 

[coffey1]

It's funny. But I think the subway is not likely. I think everybody is starting to realize they've gotten in over their heads. Nobody has a way out though.

If there's no serious integrated back-up plan for Scarborough for the people to support then good luck Politically. The LRT debate in its current form is rightfully dead. The Subway is happening unless some serious cake is thrown at integrate and expanding an LRT network

Everyone already knows what it is. Theres not going to be a light bulb moment. People fail to realize the outrage, frustration & apathy of commuters outside of the core. Citizens in general are tired of the lack of investment & poor quality investment in many parts of the City. If there's no serious plan it's going to get uglier than ever.

Will the subway fix it? No Will the crappy LRT plan? Certainly not

But the Subway provides greater benefit to the MAJORITY when compared to the 2nd rate LRT design & funding. It is what it is....