[goreckm]

This mentality is off-putting to say the least. Hoping to transfer funds away from Scarborough, won't even begin to amass the $14-$20 billion required for the DRL fully built out (Mount Dennis - Don Mills Stn). Why should east-enders suffer for decades when the SRT is clearly at its end-of-life point now and the SSE can be completed in under 10 years if only the perpetual second-guessing and what-ifs would cease?

Better to demand brand new monies get raised to fund the DRL altogether rather than stretch the limited kitty the OLP/LPC has already earmarked for all other transit projects across the City, just a mere $7 billion over 10 years.

What if there is no more money? It's nice demanding it and all, but, if we don't have it, it's not going to do much good. Realistically, since subway construction is so expensive, we probably won't see shovels in the ground until the Scarborough subway is completed (if we are lucky), so probably 2040 opening for the DRL.

 

[dowlingm]

We don't know where a Scarborough megahospital will go - but yes, a new single-site acute care Scarborough hospital is in the mid-term plans, now that Centenary is joined with Grace and General. The province loves building them in suburban greenfields, far from transit or where people live, with only a few exceptions, like the new Humber River Hospital on the MTO Downsview lands.

In Scarborough, it quite likely means a disused industrial or commercial site like in Golden Mile, or along the Kennedy or Midland Road corridor. Maybe on Progress near Bellamy. We don't know.

In any case, Lawrence/McCowan makes sense if you're going to build a subway extension to STC, partially for the bus connections.

Wouldn't the SRT yard, plus some expropriation of adjacent industrial, be the basis for a pretty decent sized relocation site, with subway and 401 at hand?

The SGH Lawrence site looks something like 70,000m2 and not exactly high rise. A squared off Ellesmere-Grangeway-Progress-Bellamy "box" as measured by Google Maps is roughly 622m x 400m, (250k sq m) of which the yard is a small part but central - probably the easiest approach would be with the large plots on Progress with another entrance via SRT lands to Ellesmere. Even without taking the lands SW/SE of the yard you've still got a pretty big site there.

The avoided disruption and cost of not building Lawrence station would be a decent downpayment on moving the hospital if all other things are equal, and the tunnel could be optimised as a through route rather than needing 500ft of flattish tunnel for a platform, and would be a significant institutional anchor to STC since it would likely attract an ecosystem of clinics and so on.

 

[kEiThZ]

What if there is no more money?

But this is not the case. Ottawa is paying a third of its light rail program. The only project that Toronto has felt compelled to pay into of all the recent developments is the SSE and TYSSE. LRTs are "free" to Toronto.

Raise the damn property taxes already. This is self-imposed artificial scarcity of funds.

 

[OneCity]

What if there is no more money?

Think of the cost of the next round of expansion and relief lines in 50-100 years across the GTA. Inflation adjusted what will the cost be then? We claim to have no money because no one planned ahead. All this debating ends up costing us more and may be quite negligible in the grand scheme. If they built the extension to Scarborough 50 years ago it would have seemed like quite the deal today but they claimed we'd be broke. The Feds and the Province need to do whatever is required to build the backlog caused by lack of funding model and Political games obstructing public transit building in previous decades. And then more importantly start panning for growth and expansion in the future so this doesn't happen again

This isn't to get into a debate about the costs of various current technologies or where certain technologies should be implemented and their benefits but just wanted to point out the costs to expand in bigger picture are far beyond the understanding of todays dollar valuation and if the upper Government levels don't plan ahead and continue to play games we will always be "broke" no matter what technology. We are seeing Governments start to step up and although its not even close to enough, or a sustainable plan in place its good to see momentum getting away from crying transit "broke".

 

[goreckm]

Think of the cost of the next round of expansion and relief lines in 50-100 years across the GTA. Inflation adjusted what will the cost be then? We claim to have no money because no one planned ahead. All this debating ends up costing us more and may be quite negligible in the grand scheme. If they built the extension to Scarborough 50 years ago it would have seemed like quite the deal today but they claimed we'd be broke. The Feds and the Province need to do whatever is required to build the backlog caused by lack of funding model and Political games obstructing public transit building in previous decades. And then more importantly start panning for growth and expansion in the future so this doesn't happen again

This isn't to get into a debate about the costs of various current technologies or where certain technologies should be implemented and their benefits but just wanted to point out the costs to expand in bigger picture are far beyond the understanding of todays dollar valuation and if the upper Government levels don't plan ahead and continue to play games we will always be "broke" no matter what technology. We are seeing Governments start to step up and although its not even close to enough, or a sustainable plan in place its good to see momentum getting away from crying transit "broke".

But you are assuming here that something will eventually get built. As long as this political climate persists, the amount of transit investment will lag substantially behind need, and cannot be sustained due to the lack of money being generated. I would bet that the relief line probably has < 50% chance of ever being built at this point. There are just too many things that can happen over the next 2+ elections that it will take before shovels are in the ground, and of course, that there really is no money for it, and most importantly, no desire to get more of it, no matter who we elect. That's why it's important to choose the projects we build carefully and judiciously, not just as an exercise to try and buy votes.

 

[OneCity]

But you are assuming here that something will eventually get built. As long as this political climate persists, the amount of transit investment will lag substantially behind need, and cannot be sustained due to the lack of money being generated. I would bet that the relief line probably has < 50% chance of ever being built at this point. There are just too many things that can happen over the next 2+ elections that it will take before shovels are in the ground, and of course, that there really is no money for it, and most importantly, no desire to get more of it, no matter who we elect. That's why it's important to choose the projects we build carefully and judiciously, not just as an exercise to try and buy votes.

We have a Toronto specific funding problem. The Province and Country is far from broke and we are building highways, BRT, LRT, Subways in the 905. they haven't planned properly and we need to do what Tory is doing and demand our piece for all areas of the City. Our Municipal Politics is a reflection of this internal neglect and fighting over "priority" is just letting the upper levels off the hook and is creating greater division.

Surely there are no guarantees in Politics but things are changing slightly and transit expansion is becoming a priority all over the GTA. Wait to see what the Province does as that will be the MOST important factor right now. If they allocate funding towards the projects on the table I would expect most id not all of them pretty much to all be built this time. The DRL, SSE and Eglinton extensions will be well into design and can start next Mayoral term.

The Conservative and Liberals both support the subways which is good given the stages these projects are at in design and the stage we are at because of the lack of action of past administrations. Tory and Ford both support the DRL and Id expect most other Mayoral candidates will support it if the Province steps up. They are supporting the design for a reason. The momentum is decent for building if we can stop bickering internally. Any delays now can add another decade easily to any of these projects in design.

 

[goreckm]

Surely there are no guarantees when but things are changing . Wait to see what the Province does as that will be the MOST important factor right now. If they allocate funding towards the projects on the table I would expect most id not all of them pretty much to all be built this time. The DRL, SSE and Eglinton extensions will be well into design and can start next Mayoral term.

The Conservative and Liberals both support the subways which is good given the stages these projects are at in design and the stage we are at because of the lack of action of past administrations.

Things are changing? Really, I don't see any evidence of that. Apart from the BigMove plan that is a decade old, all we've had were scope reductions, timeline extensions, and cancellations. So, things are getting defacto worse for transit funding (in Toronto). The feds are giving some money, but the part that is allocated to Toronto won't be much (and a big part of it is already committed to projects anyways), and Toronto has to contribute it's own fair share. However, Toronto is overextended financially, and refuses to implement any major revenue tools. Most of the remaining money will probably go to help the province fund it's GO RER plans, or other infrastructure projects unrelated to transit. The current support for subways you mention is actually just support for the 1 stop extension. It's plain to see, as nobody is even willing to give money for an additional stop that would drastically improve the line. All of the other lines are just fantastical, and any talk about design is really just vote buying at this point, as there are no concrete plans to fully fund any of it.

I too am curious about the budget. I think we'll see a cut in provincial transit spending, imo, as they want a balanced budget heading into the elections. Everything else will be unfunded promises that will get money after the election (but not really).

 

[OneCity]

Things are changing? Really, I don't see any evidence of that. Apart from the BigMove plan that is a decade old, all we've had were scope reductions, timeline extensions, and cancellations. So, things are getting defacto worse for transit funding (in Toronto). The feds are giving some money, but the part that is allocated to Toronto won't be much (and a big part of it is already committed to projects anyways), and Toronto has to contribute it's own fair share. However, Toronto is overextended financially, and refuses to implement any major revenue tools. Most of the remaining money will probably go to help the province fund it's GO RER plans, or other infrastructure projects unrelated to transit. The current support for subways you mention is actually just support for the 1 stop extension. It's plain to see, as nobody is even willing to give money for an additional stop that would drastically improve the line. All of the other lines are just fantastical, and any talk about design is really just vote buying at this point, as there are no concrete plans to fully fund any of it.

I too am curious about the budget. I think we'll see a cut in provincial transit spending, imo, as they want a balanced budget heading into the elections. Everything else will be unfunded promises that will get money after the election (but not really).

Disagree. We are now trending up as a City in terms of transit. Taxes are being raised, and revenue tools may not be implemented but are being used as leveraged. The City has hit rock bottom Politically due to starvation and lack of planning for decades. Also there is only one subway stop because of 1. Smarttrack, 2.The RT can be kept running and 3. Adding more stops will increase costs and its already high because of the route chose from 1 & 2 and they just want to get shovels in the ground quickly. As much as I want more stops the subway to SCC will be great for Scarborough's future and a local network can be improved and built gradually hopefully starting with a full Eglinton East.

Again I think the Province will be at the table here to support Tory for many Political reasons. If im wrong we debate further as you'll be correct Toronto will be trending back down the toilet politically. I highly doubt that after what we just went thru.

 

[Leo_Chan]

Is the DRL (short) further in design than the SSE?

 

[OneCity]

Is the DRL (short) further in design than the SSE?

Pretty much both 5%'ers in design I believe. Which is why I expect the funding announcement shortly. Both should be in construction around the same time.

 

[goreckm]

Disagree. We are now trending up as a City in terms of transit. Taxes are being raised, and revenue tools may not be implemented but are being used as leveraged. The City has hit rock bottom Politically due to starvation and lack of planning for decades. Also there is only one subway stop because of 1. Smarttrack, 2.The RT can be kept running and 3. Adding more stops will increase costs and its already high because of the route chose from 1 & 2 and they just want to get shovels in the ground quickly. As much as I want more stops the subway to SCC will be great for Scarborough's future and a local network can be improved and built gradually hopefully starting with a full Eglinton East.

Again I think the Province will be at the table here to support Tory for many Political reasons. If im wrong we debate further as you'll be correct Toronto will be trending back down the toilet politically. I highly doubt that after what we just went thru.

I don't see how you can make that conclusion. Out of the original 7 LRT lines that were proposed, both of them have been shortened (Eglinton and Finch). Also, Eglinton will now only be fully grade separated until Laird instead of Don Mills (for such a small $ amount in savings) as added insult to injury. One of the lines is replaced by a subway (I say replaced since the new SELRT is unfunded), but, the subway will remove the total number of rapid transit stops we have today, effectively making access to transit worse for many. Also, it is not as long as the original promised line to Malvern.

In terms of new transit, we have GO RER, but it is proceeding at such a slow pace, electrification on all of the lines is easily over a decade away. We will have stations in Toronto, but, since nobody will be willing to pick-up the slack of normalizing the fares within the city, they will just serve to delay the 905 commuters coming in from out of town, and do little for anyone in the city.

And not to mention that we will likely be removing our grade separated access to the waterfront with a pedestrian walkway, since the city does not have money to expand the existing Union Loop.

To me, none of this sounds like we are trending up. Also, what taxes are being raised exactly? We have the Scarborough subway tax, sure, but that is just to pay for the cities small portion of the line, and I doubt the desire is there for an additional tax until this one is done (many years away).

 

[OneCity]

I don't see how you can make that conclusion. Out of the original 7 LRT lines that were proposed, both of them have been shortened (Eglinton and Finch). Also, Eglinton will now only be fully grade separated until Laird instead of Don Mills (for such a small $ amount in savings) as added insult to injury. One of the lines is replaced by a subway (I say replaced since the new SELRT is unfunded), but, the subway will remove the total number of rapid transit stops we have today, effectively making access to transit worse for many. Also, it is not as long as the original promised line to Malvern.

In terms of new transit, we have GO RER, but it is proceeding at such a slow pace, electrification on all of the lines is easily over a decade away. We will have stations in Toronto, but, since nobody will be willing to pick-up the slack of normalizing the fares within the city, they will just serve to delay the 905 commuters coming in from out of town, and do little for anyone in the city.

And not to mention that we will likely be removing our grade separated access to the waterfront with a pedestrian walkway, since the city does not have money to expand the existing Union Loop.

To me, none of this sounds like we are trending up. Also, what taxes are being raised exactly? We have the Scarborough subway tax, sure, but that is just to pay for the cities small portion of the line, and I doubt the desire is there for an additional tax until this one is done (many years away).

I certainly didn't mean we are trending up into some glorious transit renaissance. I meant we hit rock bottom Politically in this City much of which was was caused by division over the inadequate funding and time is running out for excuses not be building at all levels. As you mention some taxes are being implemented and although no one wants them they are being discussed as a priority like never before. Good for the City but it shouldnt be there responsibility to fund these projects anyway.

The Feds are finally showing up at the table and albeit not enough but they are finally here. Both the Province and Fed are helping to fund the designs for out current plans. We now have a popular Mayor calling out upper levels and lobbying for projects across the entire City to get what close to what the majority of voters have been demanding for their respective areas. These are very good signs heading into the Provincial budget which is nearing campaign time

 

[nfitz]

Out of the original 7 LRT lines that were proposed, both of them have been shortened (Eglinton and Finch). Also, Eglinton will now only be fully grade separated until Laird instead of Don Mills (for such a small $ amount in savings) as added insult to injury. One of the lines is replaced by a subway (I say replaced since the new SELRT is unfunded), but, the subway will remove the total number of rapid transit stops we have today, effectively making access to transit worse for many.

Eglinton in the original 2009 (2010?) EA was always grade-separated to Laird with Leslie at surface.

I'm not sure how the Downtown Relief line replaces any of the original 7 LRT lines. It might shorten the Don Mills line, but it doesn't eliminate it.

 

[goreckm]

Eglinton in the original 2009 (2010?) EA was always grade-separated to Laird with Leslie at surface.

I'm not sure how the Downtown Relief line replaces any of the original 7 LRT lines. It might shorten the Don Mills line, but it doesn't eliminate it.

Wasn't aware of the first, my understanding was grade separation was planned to Don Mills, but the desire for a Leslie stop torpedoed that.

As for the DRL, I don't count that as a serious plan until the are some funding commitments.

 

[goreckm]

We now have a Mayor calling out upper levels and lobbying for projects across the entire City to get what close to what the majority of voters have been demanding for their respective areas. These are very good signs heading into the Provincial budget nearing campaign time

I guess I'm just cynical, but my view of this is that he knows there's no more money coming, he's just doing this for the optics so he can say he's fighting for the city come election time, and he can blame the province when all these plans fall through.