[Electrify]

Cost/benefit analysis aside, if I lived east of the city and I worked anywhere close to Bloor downtown, I would absolutely do that commute instead of taking the GO train and then a subway northbound. Also, If I were headed downtown for shopping or dinner, etc, I would also choose that way of getting downtown, no question. I am sure less people would do it in case of the LRT.

I'm not arguing that Toronto should not pick up more of the tab (it should), only that there is tangible incremental regional benefit.

Or even better, take the new DART bus service to the subway. We don't see Viva buses connecting to an intermediate transit service to Eglinton, then having to transfer again to the subway. The closest to that we have are the Zum buses needing to transfer on to the Rocket at York University, and that will be changing soon with the subway extension to Vaughan.

 

[Solid Snake]

bobbob911:

As I have said before, that's a "nice to have" and make for a lower quality argument for BD extension than ridership justification. Besides, just how many people from Ajax, Pickering, etc -would chose to head to STC for the transfer in the two different scenarios? The limiter likely won't be LRT vs. BD but the distance and connection from STC to those said areas. The benefits of BD extension is mainly local - and given how much the province is paying up, why shouldn't the locals pony up a bit more for a choice that they (and they alone) chose to make (and remake, again and again)? At the end of the day, isn't the argument for need something that is best shown by one's willingness to pony up for it?

AoD

Montreal made the case that having stations close and inside some of those suburbs drastically improved the commute time, the quality of life and growth of those cities.

Montreal said that due to these undeniable facts, suburbs should pay through their property taxes a fee to Montreal for the operating costs of the subway since suburbans are heavily using the subway but Montrealers were the only one paying for its maintenance.

Well, they got what they wish for and every suburbs in the Montreal greater area have to pay a fee to Montreal for the subway.

The thing that I like with the Scarborough subway is that it will get people off the 401and the DVP that will be coming from York and Durham regions. That's where the extra 5 milions trips will be coming from.

Like Andy Byford said, the more pressure you put on Bloor-Yonge and the Bloor-Danforth line, the faster the DRL will be financed and built.

I dont like the argument that Scarborough should pay extra because they want a subway when they have been paying for the rest of the network and Vaughan ridiculous extension for years.

That's really condenscending and divisive espacially coming from some individuals demanding for a regional vision. Still hilarious to me that those same people will defend anyway they can a subway to Richmond Hill while the Scarborough subway will be doing similar for the region.

Why not make the surrounding regions pay too? Why is the subway good enough for Richmond Hill and Vaughan ($$$) but not Scarbourough ($)?

 

[goreckm]

I almost never post on these forms, but I really had to reply to this one:

Like Andy Byford said, the more pressure you put on Bloor-Yonge and the Bloor-Danforth line, the faster the DRL will be financed and built.

It would be crazy if we waited until this was finished before we started building the DRL. Consider this: Scarborough Subway not finished until the mid-2020s (2023, but add 1 or 2 years for delays, etc), then, it would take a few years for ridership to increase to start creating "more pressure" at Bloor-Yonge. This means not beginning to plan for the DRL until 2030, and who knows when it will be open to the public (mid 2040s). All this will likely do is accelerate adding ATC on the bloor line (planned for mid-2020s anyway), and waste $1+ billion on upgrading Bloor-Yonge, since that is the best short-term solution, once again delaying the DRL investment.

We can't build the DRL because of the impacts of the Scarborough Subway, that is way too late. And if we're raising extra funds for building the Scarborough subway, how are we going to get the extra money we need for the DRL?

 

[Tulse]

Like Andy Byford said, the more pressure you put on Bloor-Yonge and the Bloor-Danforth line, the faster the DRL will be financed and built.

Because there isn't enought pressure on the line and BY currently? I'm all for silver linings, but we simply can't wait until the extension is built and forcing more folks through BY. Given how long planning and construction take, that would mean it would be decades until the DRL is running.

Edited to add: I guess we think alike, goreckm.

 

[SJD_Toronto]

Because there isn't enought pressure on the line and BY currently? I'm all for silver linings, but we simply can't wait until the extension is built and forcing more folks through BY. Given how long planning and construction take, that would mean it would be decades until the DRL is running.

Edited to add: I guess we think alike, goreckm.

But even if the Bloor-Danforth extension began construction a year or so before shovels could be in the ground for the Relief Line, I too, think the Relief Line would be on a faster track to being built as per what Andy Byford stated. Just as long as idiots like Rob and Doug Ford don't push for a Sheppard Subway extension next, though they probably will ("The people of Scarborough deserve it!" Blah Blah). Then again, the chances of the Bloor-Danforth extension is still walking on eggshells until we know that money is coming in for sure. I give the subway plan a 50/50 chance of happening. I do hope the subway plan happens as I think it's the best plan over all and does give Scarborough the damn subway they've been craving for years, but we will see what happens in the next 8 weeks or so.

 

[Thernan]

I have a sick feeling they will end up building a monorail instead.

 

[Solid Snake]

I almost never post on these forms, but I really had to reply to this one:



It would be crazy if we waited until this was finished before we started building the DRL. Consider this: Scarborough Subway not finished until the mid-2020s (2023, but add 1 or 2 years for delays, etc), then, it would take a few years for ridership to increase to start creating "more pressure" at Bloor-Yonge. This means not beginning to plan for the DRL until 2030, and who knows when it will be open to the public (mid 2040s). All this will likely do is accelerate adding ATC on the bloor line (planned for mid-2020s anyway), and waste $1+ billion on upgrading Bloor-Yonge, since that is the best short-term solution, once again delaying the DRL investment.

We can't build the DRL because of the impacts of the Scarborough Subway, that is way too late. And if we're raising extra funds for building the Scarborough subway, how are we going to get the extra money we need for the DRL?

i agree but politicians usually wait for the network to be critical before doing something.

I dont agree with the method either but that's how the province operate. they don't plan, they react.

 

[datamouse]

What goes unsaid is that an LRT would also increase pressure on B/D.

 

[Adjei]

I'm just brainstorming ways to try and find the money to make this happen, and improve it as well. Oakwood is a very urban street, though it should be noted that the Oakwood Village area begins about 300m south of Eglinton. The current bus would probably still be in use, and could continue to turn on to Eglinton towards Eglinton West station. That said, there certainly is more justification for an Oakwood stop than for many of the other subway stops in this city, let alone LRT.

It looks like the city is in a bit of a predicament right now. The province expects the city to pay the difference, which is hardly unreasonable, but where are they going to get the money? They could quietly axe stations and stops which would see lesser ridership on the new LRT lines, but that could upset residents and some of these stops do justify their existence. Likewise the city could raise taxes, but then other parts of the city which don't require more could want more as well. Etobicoke has been far more subway deprived than Scarborough ever was could start demanding that they get rapid transit expansion as well.

The city needs to lobby the province as to why it should pay up an extra $400 million. As of now, it just looks like a kid wanting a fancier toy. There are many benefits to going forward as a subway, especially from a regional perspective, but unless the province understands this then there is no reason for them to put in more money.

We have about two and half months to figure out what we are to do. The province has made its position clear, and it is a respectable position. It is unlikely the feds will come to the rescue (though during the LRT vs subway debates last year, the Toronto Sun had a cover quoting Harper saying he endorses subways...), so perhaps it is best to go back to the LRT design. That said, it should be accompanied with new zoning to increase density around Kennedy, Ellesmere, and Midland stations. Not necessarily to build 100 story condo towers, but to create a more urban feel and make these places destinations rather than barren spaces and transfer points.

I don't think the city can cancel any stations because Metrolinx is building the LRT's and I doubt they are going to give any money from the LRT lines to give to Toronto to build any subway after all this ordeal.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I don't the city can cancel any stations because Metrolinx is building the LRT's and I doubt they are going to give any money from the LRT lines to give to Toronto to build any subway after all this ordeal.

They're not. The subway is dead. They're just playing politics. Can we get back to rebuilding the SRT now?

 

[Rainforest]

Perhaps this route can save some construction costs. It travels on surface along Uxbridge Sub, and then tunneled under Ellesmere to STC and under McCowan to Sheppard:

The idea is to utilize the at-grade section of SRT corridor along Uxbridge sub, but avoid having to upgrade the elevated section to subway specs. That cuts the tunneling length by about 3.5 km, but at the expense of building two more station (new station at Kennedy, and rebuilding Lawrence East to handle subways).

Other details of the Uxbridge Sub - Ellesmere route (vs Danforth - McCowan route):

Total length: 8 km (vs 7.5 km)
Tunneled length: 4 km (vs 7.5 km)
Surface length: 4 km (vs 0)

Total number of stations past Kennedy: 4 (vs 3)

Total number of underground stations to build or rebuild: 4 (vs 3)
Total number of surface stations to rebuild: 1 (vs 0)

Additional advantages of the Uxbridge Sub - Ellesmere route:
- Lawrence East station is preserved.
- Scarborough Centre station is closer to its present location, walking times reduced for many riders.
- New station under Ellesmere near Midland has a chance to built a decent density.

Disadvantages of the Uxbridge Sub - Ellesmere route:
- No service to Scarborough General hospital (at McCowan & Lawrence). The SRT option does not go there, either. But the Danforth - McCowan subway would go there.
- SRT shutdown is required during the subway construction. Large parts of tunnels, from the Ellesmere / Midland station to STC and from STC to Sheppard / McCowan, can be built while SRT is still running. But the at-surface Uxbridge Sub section, the tunneled curve from it to Ellesmere, and maybe even the new STC station, will require SRT shutdown.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Impossible. The curve radius is too sharp for subway cars. Both at Ellesmere-Midland and at Kennedy Station.

 

[Rainforest]

Impossible. The curve radius is too sharp for subway cars.

It will be a completely new curve, not an attempt to reuse the existing one. The optimal turning radius for subways is 300 m, so the new tunnel and new curve will have to start about 300 m south of Ellesmere.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

It will be a completely new curve, not an attempt to reuse the existing one. The optimal turning radius for subways is 300 m, so the new tunnel and new curve will have to start about 300 m south of Ellesmere.

What about at Kennedy? What you describe would need a fairly massive reconfiguration of Kennedy Station.

 

[BurlOak]

I still like this idea (first paragraph). Well thought out. BurlOak should consider transit planning.

Thanks Den,

I figure that key is to look at the problem and find a solution. The LRT plan and the subway plan are solutions that were shoehorned in to solve parts of the problem.

The problem is how to create a rapid transit network, not just a simple extension of a line or tacking a new line on the end of the old line. Other problems are the transfer at Kennedy, extending the reach of rapid transit farther into Scarborough, the closure time of the SRT during construction, and not penalizing car traffic while creating rapid transit.

Both other plans (LRT and subway) tried to redefine the problem to suit the solution. The solution for LRT was a median LRT between Vic Park and Birchmount. The rest had to be designed to fit this solution. Although LRT solved some of the problems, they just ignored the remaining problems and never reconsidered if the original median portion was still logical considering how much of the remaining portion is actually grade-separated. The solution for subways was to extend the subway, and not consider the number of stations or the re-location of STC Station, again the subway extension ignored a number of the problems that it could'nt solve.