[Streety McCarface]

^Well to be honest those are all good points except the last one since something tells me if we replacing the SRT with automated vehicles would be an uphill battle like it was when the line was first created. Also the Subway requires an Operator as well.

The point is that things can change with the SRT like they are with the subway. They can't for an LRT.

 

[BurlOak]

^Well to be honest those are all good points except the last one since something tells me if we replacing the SRT with automated vehicles would be an uphill battle like it was when the line was first created. Also the Subway requires an Operator as well.

Only the union would care if there is a driver.
People are already considering autonomous cars. Surely, they can accept a train (SRT or subway) that runs on its own grade-separated Right-of-way by itself.

 

[BurlOak]

The LRT idea over the SRT replacement is the stupid part. I support the subway for future transit needs, yes, but I don't support the LRT because it solves nothing, in fact, makes things more difficult for commuters and doesn't increase the capacity of the system. If one believes that the LRT is the best because it's the fiscal choice, that's wrong. The LRT does not or will not:
-Keep the SRT open during construction
-Increase capacity
-Increase speeds
-Remove the transfer
-Lead to development along the corridor (Nothing will, not even a subway along that corridor)
-Save money (Both in operational costs and construction costs)
What it does do:
-Expensively replaces all the infrastructure that's already there. All that infrastructure works just fine, it's the vehicles that are falling apart
-Cost more than an SRT replacement with new trains (600 million vs up to 2 billion)
-Lowers platform height, increasing dwell times
-Lowers maximum capacity if interlined with the Eglinton Crosstown-Requires an operator
Someone, please tell me why Politicians support that over an SRT replacement. I can understand a subway extension even if it costs a lot because it has certain benefits to it (reduction of transfers, better connectivity, express service on the Stouffville Sub (from triple and quadruple tracking)). I can't support an LRT that will cost significantly more than something that will do the same thing. I believe that's worse transit planning than the subway.

The only think I would add it that maybe Scarborough would not be keen on retaining the transfer now.
They have put up with it for 35 years. Now that projected ridership is 12,000 ppdph, that's a lot of people to be transferring onto the B-D line. And that number is from the 2012 study that only had the line going to STC. If it goes to Centennial and Malvern - it would likely be closer to 15,000.
That's why the solution for this area should have been the connected Eglinton-Scabrorough Crosstown, or possibly a whole new line that goes downtown via the Gatineau Hydro Corridor and Don Valley. If we, as a city, were thinking in the 2005 to 2010 period, this is what would have been proposed.

 

[JSF-1]

Only the union would care if there is a driver.
People are already considering autonomous cars. Surely, they can accept a train (SRT or subway) that runs on its own grade-separated Right-of-way by itself.

Well any time the issue gets brought up both the Union and residents start chiming in about things like "having a TTC employee on board for safety" and such; without fail. Thats why I say that making the SRT fully automated (as it should be) would be a hard sell, since the same arguments come up every time. Obviously the best course of action in such a scenario would be to tell everyone to shove it but nobody at City Hall or the TTC has the spine to do it.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Well any time the issue gets brought up both the Union and residents start chiming in about things like "having a TTC employee on board for safety" and such; without fail. Thats why I say that making the SRT fully automated (as it should be) would be a hard sell, since the same arguments come up every time. Obviously the best course of action in such a scenario would be to tell everyone to shove it but nobody at City Hall or the TTC has the spine to do it.

They'd have to compromise with the union since it is their job to look out for workers' jobs. They'd probably make a case when they open Relief Line North, where operators will need to be shifted over to subway trains so they can take them off the SRT and the TTC won't have to lay anyone off.

The only think I would add it that maybe Scarborough would not be keen on retaining the transfer now.
They have put up with it for 35 years. Now that projected ridership is 12,000 ppdph, that's a lot of people to be transferring onto the B-D line. And that number is from the 2012 study that only had the line going to STC. If it goes to Centennial and Malvern - it would likely be closer to 15,000.
That's why the solution for this area should have been the connected Eglinton-Scabrorough Crosstown, or possibly a whole new line that goes downtown via the Gatineau Hydro Corridor and Don Valley. If we, as a city, were thinking in the 2005 to 2010 period, this is what would have been proposed.

The transfer is an annoying issue, I won't deny that, however, the point is that the LRT doesn't solve the issue of the transfer, therefore, it makes no sense to move forward with it.

 

[BurlOak]

They'd have to compromise with the union since it is their job to look out for workers' jobs. They'd probably make a case when they open Relief Line North, where operators will need to be shifted over to subway trains so they can take them off the SRT and the TTC won't have to lay anyone off.



The transfer is an annoying issue, I won't deny that, however, the point is that the LRT doesn't solve the issue of the transfer, therefore, it makes no sense to move forward with it.

100% agree.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

An NDP government is extremely unlikely, because of the geography of their support combined with our first-past-the-post system. NDP has very high support in a few select ridings (much more than they need to secure the seat), and no chance of winning the majority of other ridings.

In the event NDP wins, or the Liberals remain in power, the provincial government will honor its commitment (in fixed dollars) to fund a part of SSE, but will not volunteer any more funds. The city will have to cover any difference between the total cost and the amount of provincial and federal contributions. And, it will.

Not sure what John Tory is hiding; but I suspect he just wants to avoid making specific promises and prefers to retain the option of shifting the subway into the rail corridor. Any viable solution for connection between Kennedy and STC, will be either underground or in the rail corridor. The city brass prefers underground because it allows the SRT to operate while the subway is getting build. But if they feel they no longer can afford the underground option, that means they will have to accept the rail corridor option. If so, there is no reason not to build the subway there, given that the cost will be only marginally higher than for LRT with transfer.

If the Conservatives win .. well we know that Doug is no friend of public transit, but he can't afford not to build anything at all. He might take over the whole subway extension, and add one or two inline stops. Those two stops will not cost him too much, but will give him some bragging rights.

Thank goodness someone other than me is dealing with reality here. Geographically the NDP cannot win. And their chances of winning over Scarborough with their historical anti-SSE stance is even less probable.

Meanwhile, a subway to Scarborough Centre has been a long standing ideological mission for the PCs.

Funny that you mentioned that when you did, because the latest polls show the NDP now taking a lead in the popular vote province wide, and the PCPO's traditional lead in the 905 vanishing.

According to the Ipsos poll:

905 region

• 36 per cent would vote NDP.
• 35 per cent would PC.
• 27 per cent would vote Liberal.

416 region (Toronto proper)

• 37 per cent would vote PC.
• 34 per cent would vote NDP.
• 27 per cent would vote Liberal.

Southwestern Ontario

• 43 per cent would vote NDP.
• 35 per cent would vote PC.
• 15 per cent would vote Liberal.

Central Ontario

• 43 per cent would vote PC.
• 40 per cent would vote NDP.
• 14 per cent would vote Liberal.

Eastern Ontario

• 40 per cent would vote PC.
• 30 per cent would vote NDP.
• 28 per cent would vote Liberal.

Northern Ontario

• 41 per cent would vote NDP.
• 29 per cent would vote PC.
• 28 per cent would vote Liberal.

 

[jcam]

Multi-step point/question:
- the main argument for the subway extension over LRT is that people shouldn't be forced to make a long, multi-level transfer from LRT to the subway at Kennedy
- the reason people would want to make that transfer is that people are trying to get downtown
- by far the fastest route downtown from Kennedy would be taking the GO Train (19 minutes) rather than subway (38 minutes), but it doesn't come frequently enough
- but it will come every 6-10 minutes based on Smart Track
- ok, but GO costs more than TTC
- but the Liberal platform calls for all GO trips within the 416 to match TTC fares, and the PCs aren't talking about scrapping that

So by the time the Scarborough subway extension is set to open, you would already have a faster (by double) way to get downtown on an electrified GO RER train that costs the same fare as sitting on the TTC. And if you want to go to mid-downtown, you can transfer onto the Relief Line at East Harbour.

So why would you care if you were able to get to Kennedy slightly faster, if you're already going to transfer off the subway anyway?

 

[Sakraycore]

Multi-step point/question:
- the main argument for the subway extension over LRT is that people shouldn't be forced to make a long, multi-level transfer from LRT to the subway at Kennedy
- the reason people would want to make that transfer is that people are trying to get downtown
- by far the fastest route downtown from Kennedy would be taking the GO Train (19 minutes) rather than subway (38 minutes), but it doesn't come frequently enough
- but it will come every 6-10 minutes based on Smart Track
- ok, but GO costs more than TTC
- but the Liberal platform calls for all GO trips within the 416 to match TTC fares, and the PCs aren't talking about scrapping that

So by the time the Scarborough subway extension is set to open, you would already have a faster (by double) way to get downtown on an electrified GO RER train that costs the same fare as sitting on the TTC. And if you want to go to mid-downtown, you can transfer onto the Relief Line at East Harbour.

So why would you care if you were able to get to Kennedy slightly faster, if you're already going to transfer off the subway anyway?

being connected to the backbone of transportation offers flexibility that GO doesn't.

 

[jcam]

being connected to the backbone of transportation offers flexibility that GO doesn't.

LRT still connects you to it, I don't understand.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Multi-step point/question:
- the main argument for the subway extension over LRT is that people shouldn't be forced to make a long, multi-level transfer from LRT to the subway at Kennedy
- the reason people would want to make that transfer is that people are trying to get downtown
- by far the fastest route downtown from Kennedy would be taking the GO Train (19 minutes) rather than subway (38 minutes), but it doesn't come frequently enough
- but it will come every 6-10 minutes based on Smart Track
- ok, but GO costs more than TTC
- but the Liberal platform calls for all GO trips within the 416 to match TTC fares, and the PCs aren't talking about scrapping that

So by the time the Scarborough subway extension is set to open, you would already have a faster (by double) way to get downtown on an electrified GO RER train that costs the same fare as sitting on the TTC. And if you want to go to mid-downtown, you can transfer onto the Relief Line at East Harbour.

So why would you care if you were able to get to Kennedy slightly faster, if you're already going to transfer off the subway anyway?

We've gone over why RER will not be a true replacement for the subway, the main reason being the fact that it actually is not faster than taking the subway from the STC to anywhere north of King St. You have to factor in transfer times at kennedy, union, East Harbour, or wherever you're going, as well as wait times and increased travel time from initial location to RER stop. If you're going from the STC to say, The Eaton Centre or the University of Toronto, it's significantly faster to take the subway to the location. The subway also enables you to connect to anywhere in the system, whereas you're very limited with go, forcing you to head downtown if you want to go anywhere along a different corridor. If you want the high frequencies on the GO lines, you have to move the SRT replacement/LRT away from the Stouffville corridor, or else you have no room to build for increased services (even then, go is only promising 15-minute services, which is worse than most main bus routes in Toronto). Finally, it honestly looks like the Liberals are going to lose this election, so you can pretty much kiss the idea of 3$ GO fares goodbye (Ford hasn't explicitly said anything). It will either be excessive subway expansion or more funding for the TTC (NDP). I'm honestly hoping for the latter since fares are insanely expensive.


But that wasn't the initial point of the argument, we were talking about the differences between an LRT replacement and an SRT replacement with Innova rolling stock, and I think the answer here is that the LRT is the worst choice of the 3 options since it's worse than the SRT and the subway because it solves nothing the SRT replacement doesn't solve (yet costs 4* as much), while the Subway actually solves some problems in the system.

 

[Hopkins123]

Funny that you mentioned that when you did, because the latest polls show the NDP now taking a lead in the popular vote province wide, and the PCPO's traditional lead in the 905 vanishing.

According to the Ipsos poll:

905 region

• 36 per cent would vote NDP.
• 35 per cent would PC.
• 27 per cent would vote Liberal.

416 region (Toronto proper)

• 37 per cent would vote PC.
• 34 per cent would vote NDP.
• 27 per cent would vote Liberal.

Southwestern Ontario

• 43 per cent would vote NDP.
• 35 per cent would vote PC.
• 15 per cent would vote Liberal.

Central Ontario

• 43 per cent would vote PC.
• 40 per cent would vote NDP.
• 14 per cent would vote Liberal.

Eastern Ontario

• 40 per cent would vote PC.
• 30 per cent would vote NDP.
• 28 per cent would vote Liberal.

Northern Ontario

• 41 per cent would vote NDP.
• 29 per cent would vote PC.
• 28 per cent would vote Liberal.

Sorry, I'm not convinced...

---
And most of Ontario’s landscape is tinted blue for the moment. In Ottawa, the PCs dominate at 49 per cent to 28 per cent for the Liberals and 20 per cent for the NDP. In the rest of Eastern Ontario, it’s 43 per cent PC, 26 per cent NDP and 18 per cent Liberal. Ford’s party is also solidly in first place in Peel region, York-Simcoe-Durham and Southwestern Ontario. Only in the Hamilton-Niagara region west of Toronto does the NDP dominate, at 58 per cent to 27 per cent for the PCs and a paltry nine per cent for the Liberals. In Northern Ontario, New Democrats and Conservatives are tied at 34 per cent each, with the Liberals well back on 16 per cent.

Second, demographics. Ford’s party has a solid advantage among male voters, with 45 per cent of the decided vote to 25 per cent for the NDP and 24 per cent for the Liberals. But the PCs are also tied with the NDP for the support of women voters at 35 per cent, compared to 22 per cent for the Liberals. Ford’s party is in the lead among immigrants to Canada—40 per cent to 30 per cent for the Liberals, with the NDP pulling up the rear at 23 per cent—and among respondents whose parents were immigrants, at 43 per cent to 29 per cent for the Liberals and 21 per cent for the NDP. The NDP is also third among respondents who identified themselves as members of visible minorities, 44 per cent of whom would vote Liberal, compared to 36 per cent PC and 17 per cent NDP.

Source: https://www.macleans.ca/politics/the-macleans-pollara-ontario-poll-doug-fords-lingering-advantage/
---

The dynamics of the race haven't changed all that drastically in the past couple of weeks.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

And most of Ontario’s landscape is tinted blue for the moment

That moment you speak of (and it's associated data), was nearly three weeks ago. In those three weeks the PCs, in the 905 region, have gone from a 21 point lead over the NDP (19 point over the Libs), to a 1 point deficit (vs. the NDP). As they say, a week in politics is a lifetime.

The dynamics of the race haven't changed all that drastically in the past couple of weeks.

Well you're right about that... if the dynamics you speak of are PCPO's support slowly eroding while the NDP continues to surge.

 

[syn]

They'd have to compromise with the union since it is their job to look out for workers' jobs. They'd probably make a case when they open Relief Line North, where operators will need to be shifted over to subway trains so they can take them off the SRT and the TTC won't have to lay anyone off.

Removing a transfer and all the additional stops is not worth $5 billion.

The transfer is an annoying issue, I won't deny that, however, the point is that the LRT doesn't solve the issue of the transfer, therefore, it makes no sense to move forward with it.

It's annoying to have to get off at Spadina to take a streetcar, but what can you do - that's how transit works.

An Eglinton LRT will give riders direct, transfer free access to the Yonge Line.

 

[syn]

That moment you speak of (and it's associated data), was nearly three weeks ago. In those three weeks the PCs, in the 905 region, have gone from a 21 point lead over the NDP (19 point over the Libs), to a 1 point deficit (vs. the NDP). As they say, a week in politics is a lifetime.



Well you're right about that... if the dynamics you speak of are PCPO's support slowly eroding while the NDP continues to surge.

It's a trend that looks like it'll continue right towards the election. It's not as though we're finding less signs of corruption in the PC Party as time goes by.

I'd also say Ford is running a surprisingly ineffective campaign.