Armour
Senior Member
Yes. there is one north of Overlea. I guess that would make that route more difficult.
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- Thread starter Midtown Urbanist
- Start date
Yes. there is one north of Overlea. I guess that would make that route more difficult.
BMO
Senior Member
Fair points, maybe with some good marketing it can cater to the tourists. I have my doubts about people's desire to take a gondola to view the sites on this portion of the Don Valley tbh. But I guess as you've pointed out, it doesn't need to be busy to be successful.
mdrejhon
Senior Member
Gondolas are one of the few modes of transport a private investor would dare invest in -- most transport are so heavily publicly subsidized but governments are generally gondola-averse -- yet capital costs are so low enough that a gondola line can be financed by a team of middle-class residents with already-paid-off homes.
The correct route, however, is needed, to lower investment risk further. The Don Valley Gondola is more highly touristy, but it is also being installed in a richer/more touristy city than Hamilton.
In Hamilton, there are parts of the escarpment (e.g. going from Gage Park to Mountain Drive park) that takes 1 hour by transit. Google mapped 35-50 min transit including transfer. But it doesn't include the initial wait time -- between 1 to 29 minute initial waiting time not included in Google Transit directions -- so on weekends you can easily wait 1 hour.
But gondolas have nearly zero wait time (off peak)! Ironically, the less "overly successful" it is (lack of lineup), the more tempting it is as a transfer. From just a mere 500 meter 100% privately funded gondola from approximately ten residential home remortgages, cuts the transit time from 1 hour to just 3 minutes, and still profitable at reasonably low fares (potentially matching bus fares). The Don Valley Gondola at $10 roundtrip is $5, not much more than a TTC fare, and that's a more expensive setup.
Transfers are an oft-quoted issue, but that's also why privately funded gondola must hit all bases -- tourists and transit -- to be successful. As long as fewer than 8 people walk up to the gondola every 8 seconds, there's no lineup.
Also, it should have a tapcard system (future Presto compatibility, but initially private reloadable card, similar to the ones for Playdium Arcade) as to keep frequent-commuter convenience maximized, operating costs low as possible. Heating and lighting are add-ons available for 365 day transit-hours-style operations (Tremblant's inexpensive mini-capsule gondola has these). Multiple methods of fare payments (online, offline, vending, tapcard, etc) to zero-out offpeak ticket booth staffing requirements to permit winter nighttime operations at operating costs palatable to investors.
To be acceptable to private investors for 365+nighttime operations -- I would see it as being "able to downscale" to be run by just 1 employee per station offpeak (boarding safety only), rainy and dark midwinter days, supplemented by a vending machine to offload gondola-watch/safety duty. Obviously for peak time, to rev-up the motor for higher speed operations (5 meter/second), it might be that 2-3 employees are needed -- one to help speed up payments to keep the gondola stuffed -- and one to mind boarding. But the increased gondola traffic obviously pays for a fleet of staff. Maintenance/cleaning/janitorial staff wouldn't be full time but could scale up if gondola exceeded demand. That way, break even easily throttles back to just mere low hundreds of users per day. Both ends of the gondola must have destinations useful to residents, as well as residents on both ends too, and that way, many residents are within walking distance of one end (e.g. either starting point or ending point) requiring only one transfer (e.g. to bus). Also reducing transfer pain, is the "fun" aspect of a low-fare gondola as well as the zero off-peak waiting time (8 seconds wait...!) somewhat mitigates the pain of doing transfers that involves a gondola connection very close to public transit. Obviously, fare integration is a thorny investor question (e.g. privately funded gondola transfers to a public transit system, and the need to negotiate with transit systems to reimburse them for the tax cost of the transfer). But that bridge can also be theoretically crossed in the future once the gondola is already up and running, too. I would presume it is a case-by-case and requires a negotiation process...
It is highly touristy/fun, which is why cash-strapped governments, backed by angry taxpayers, do not really want to touch gondolas. To top it off, the "white elephant" and "Simpsons monorail" screams from Joe Q Public. But just look at the wildly successful Brazillian "gondola metros" that move millions more people than expected, they are clearly also serving transit simultaneously with tourists.
For the next 10-20 years, it is my opinion that there is an excellent window of time for 100% private investment in certain Ontario cities for various gondola corridors that have difficult geography for other forms of transit.
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bobbob911
Active Member
Hopefully if they are successful the same company can find way to install one down to Bluffers Park....
Johnny Au
Senior Member
It would be interesting to use Kickstarter or IndieGoGo to fund a gondola route. Rewards can include monthly passes (and even lifetime passes), along with the usual buttons and T-shirts.
Euphoria
Active Member
Love this idea. Hope we can see at least one route up and running. If it was part of the TTC with TTC fairs and connections to lines like the Crosstown, Bloor-Danforth, and DRL, then we'd have a useful addition to the network that makes some key tourist destinations more accessible. The gondola itself is a draw. I'd love to take a trip over the valley to the Brickworks or Riverdale Farm on a weekend. We see these kinds of cheap, quirky solutions in South America and Asia. Why not here?
MisterF
Senior Member
Are you referring the gondola that connects the main village to the Soleil base area (where the casino is)? I haven't been on that one. But the gondola that goes up the mountain isn't heated or lit.
mdrejhon
Senior Member
I don't think $20M can be raised by IndieGoGo alone, as very few IndieGoGo go that high -- usually requires a worldwide audience.
However, crowdfunding could probably easily raise the costs of studies -- privately-funded accredited feasibility study, business case studies, EA, etc. Stretch goals could unlock additional and more-detailed studies.
That said, there are extreme risks of using crowdfunding too -- because even sensible gondolas can be somewhat of a "carnival distraction topic" that media likes to deride -- and that can hurt the publicity of a crowdfunding if you're getting negative publicity. So you want enough people to pledge that it would easily exceed the goal -- so you can unlock stretch goals and show the media people want it, how it's not laughing matter.
Oh yes, I keep confusing the separate Tremblant gondolas for the heating/lighting feature.
EDIT: Actually, it's an additional gondola:
"The skiing in front of Tremblant resort is the 'South Side' of the mountain and is immediately accessible by a range of modern lifts. These are currently being upgraded each year: the Tremblant Express high speed quad was replaced by a heated 8-seater gondola."
I haven't been to Tremblant lately in the last 3 years. How many gondolas resort-wide are there? 3 or 4 now, I think.
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MisterF
Senior Member
I found the source for that quote and it looks like it's a really interesting read on the history of the resort. You're right, apparently the gondola to the top is heated. I've never noticed any heat any time I've ridden it though. The mountain has only two gondolas - one to the summit and another that links the main village to the new Soleil village (plus the village cabriolet but I don't think that really counts). The rest of the lifts are open air chairs.
Catenary
Active Member
There is no way the gondola to the top is heated. The Casino Gondola is lit with solar panels on the roofs, but I haven't noticed any heat on it.
I believe the gondola at Killington, VT, was propane heated, but they feature was removed a few years after installation. Skiers are already dressed for the cold, heat isn't as important to them.
muller877
Senior Member
New gondola's and chairlifts use batteries to heat them (and it could be the same for lighting). When the gondola moves through the station the gondola connects with a "third rail" type system which sends electricity to charge a battery in the gondola. This 20 seconds or so in the station is enough to recharge the battery for one trip. The battery then can be used for heat/light.
mdrejhon
Senior Member
Battery-electric heaters are now finally practical
It's impressive how quickly modern lithium-ion battery packs can charge nowadays. Not as fast as fuel but 20-second battery charges is far more than enough for a 5-minute powering. Could be supplemented by solar panels too, to top-off the battery. A car-battery sized lithium-ion battery can be quite as powerful as a small propane heater. Won't heat for as long, but it doesn't have to. A short in-station charging can cram enough power in for a 3-minute heater. The charge-discharge cycles is very shallow, and lithium batteries are able last quite a long time (tens or hundreds of thousands brief-charges) since they don't accumulate to a full charge cycle (only 1000 to 3000 full charge cycles lifetime).
Solar are common on gondolas now
Solar panels on the top of the gondolas are also used nowadays. You can now easily do solar alone, if you're only handling lighting -- Bright LED lighting runs multiple nights off a single daily overcast charge nowadays. Plenty of room on top of gondola for a few hundred watts of solar to charge up enough for a sub-10-watt LED that outshines a traditional 60 watt bulb.
That said, in the interests of keeping costs low, for the first Ontario urban gondola wherever it is, I'd probably only opt for solar-charged lighting and a smaller battery. The ability to do nighttime operations is extremely important if we want to include transit/commuter/residential audience as part of the otherwise tourist market, which requires lighting.
That said, given the risk of some of the transit market audiences, it's best to throw in intercoms and security cameras, quite doable on a lower budget nowadays, consumes only a few watts, easily off the same battery.
Gondola Video Security
From an IT perspective, keeping track of security incidents (vandalism to gondola capsules, perhaps by people who have been drinking during a football game) by non-live security camera footage can be made simple: Cameras don't necessarily have to transmit realtime except as a black box recorder for incidents, or it could be WiFi transmission while in stations (perhaps automatically into a DVR, so operators could retroactively determine vandalism incidents -- pee, graffiti, damage, etc). Cameras that automatically transit their footage when in range of their WiFi stations. Generic stuff, often used in taxi fleets and other nomadic security situations. There are off-the-market solutions (non-gondola targeted) that can do this nowadays, and I would insist these be installed into any partially transit-targeted urban gondola, even if it's mostly a tourist market. Filenames with time, date, and capsule, so you can use off-the-market software to rapidly find the offending footage. Gondola capsules that don't transmit footage will still have their flash storage, which can be removed (ie. WiFi failure) or polled (force the WiFi to connect) to dump footage to the server. Annual flash replacement to keep flash memory wear in check. A tower of a few tens terabytes stores more than a week's HD footage by all capsules. If it's not done by the gondola manufacturer cost-effectively, then it is all mature market to an IT guy like me (equipment selection skill is key to keep cost low), and would cost only 5-figures or low 6-figures to do separate-install of a wireless video security solution to all capsules of a 7-to-8-figure gondola line. If a bit of IT skill is needed, I'd do it myself (bunch of Linux scripting can do wonders) or allow the budget to go up another 100K -- maximum. If people break doors, windows, it needs to be traceable after all simply by looking up a few video files.
Regarding noise abatement:
For nighttime (i.e. 11pm) operations, you want to ban high-speed rope operations (Avoid the click-click noise of capsules going through towers and stations -- noise abatement) -- run the gondola slower for quietness -- and keep separate stranger groups in separate capsules, to maximize transit safety. The higher speed 5m/second 3600pphd (7200 people bidirectionally per hour) operations should probably only occur before a specific time during the evening.
Whereupon it switches to mandatory night operations mode (slow rope, group separation into separate capsules) and then stop operating at a time not too dissimilar from area transit, depending on how transit-friendly the specific gondola corridor is.
It's impressive how quickly modern lithium-ion battery packs can charge nowadays. Not as fast as fuel but 20-second battery charges is far more than enough for a 5-minute powering. Could be supplemented by solar panels too, to top-off the battery. A car-battery sized lithium-ion battery can be quite as powerful as a small propane heater. Won't heat for as long, but it doesn't have to. A short in-station charging can cram enough power in for a 3-minute heater. The charge-discharge cycles is very shallow, and lithium batteries are able last quite a long time (tens or hundreds of thousands brief-charges) since they don't accumulate to a full charge cycle (only 1000 to 3000 full charge cycles lifetime).
Solar are common on gondolas now
Solar panels on the top of the gondolas are also used nowadays. You can now easily do solar alone, if you're only handling lighting -- Bright LED lighting runs multiple nights off a single daily overcast charge nowadays. Plenty of room on top of gondola for a few hundred watts of solar to charge up enough for a sub-10-watt LED that outshines a traditional 60 watt bulb.
That said, in the interests of keeping costs low, for the first Ontario urban gondola wherever it is, I'd probably only opt for solar-charged lighting and a smaller battery. The ability to do nighttime operations is extremely important if we want to include transit/commuter/residential audience as part of the otherwise tourist market, which requires lighting.
That said, given the risk of some of the transit market audiences, it's best to throw in intercoms and security cameras, quite doable on a lower budget nowadays, consumes only a few watts, easily off the same battery.
Gondola Video Security
From an IT perspective, keeping track of security incidents (vandalism to gondola capsules, perhaps by people who have been drinking during a football game) by non-live security camera footage can be made simple: Cameras don't necessarily have to transmit realtime except as a black box recorder for incidents, or it could be WiFi transmission while in stations (perhaps automatically into a DVR, so operators could retroactively determine vandalism incidents -- pee, graffiti, damage, etc). Cameras that automatically transit their footage when in range of their WiFi stations. Generic stuff, often used in taxi fleets and other nomadic security situations. There are off-the-market solutions (non-gondola targeted) that can do this nowadays, and I would insist these be installed into any partially transit-targeted urban gondola, even if it's mostly a tourist market. Filenames with time, date, and capsule, so you can use off-the-market software to rapidly find the offending footage. Gondola capsules that don't transmit footage will still have their flash storage, which can be removed (ie. WiFi failure) or polled (force the WiFi to connect) to dump footage to the server. Annual flash replacement to keep flash memory wear in check. A tower of a few tens terabytes stores more than a week's HD footage by all capsules. If it's not done by the gondola manufacturer cost-effectively, then it is all mature market to an IT guy like me (equipment selection skill is key to keep cost low), and would cost only 5-figures or low 6-figures to do separate-install of a wireless video security solution to all capsules of a 7-to-8-figure gondola line. If a bit of IT skill is needed, I'd do it myself (bunch of Linux scripting can do wonders) or allow the budget to go up another 100K -- maximum. If people break doors, windows, it needs to be traceable after all simply by looking up a few video files.
Regarding noise abatement:
For nighttime (i.e. 11pm) operations, you want to ban high-speed rope operations (Avoid the click-click noise of capsules going through towers and stations -- noise abatement) -- run the gondola slower for quietness -- and keep separate stranger groups in separate capsules, to maximize transit safety. The higher speed 5m/second 3600pphd (7200 people bidirectionally per hour) operations should probably only occur before a specific time during the evening.
Whereupon it switches to mandatory night operations mode (slow rope, group separation into separate capsules) and then stop operating at a time not too dissimilar from area transit, depending on how transit-friendly the specific gondola corridor is.
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D
Duck
Guest
I'm okay with this plan, so long as we can get a Funitel with a terminal station like the Galzigbahn.
Towered
Superstar
Austrians make the best cable cars.
mdrejhon
Senior Member
Reminder for those interested: Coming right up this Tuesday:
COMMUNITY INFORMATION SESSION
Tuesday, March 8th, 2016
7pm – 9pm
The Estonian House
958 Broadview Avenue
(Just north of Broadview TTC station)
Tuesday, March 8th, 2016
7pm – 9pm
The Estonian House
958 Broadview Avenue
(Just north of Broadview TTC station)