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gabe
Guest
So someone opening fire in the busiest mall in the country should only be big news if 10 or more people are killed??
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- Thread starter CDL.TO
- Start date
So someone opening fire in the busiest mall in the country should only be big news if 10 or more people are killed??
nfitz
Superstar
I'm surprised a gang shooting with no other deaths than the target is making more international news than the international manhunt for the guy from Scarborough who cut off people's body parts and mailed them to federal leaders.
dt_toronto_geek
Superstar
Just guns, not gun deaths. It's very troubling if police are using propaganda to get more funding.
Well then, between our Mayor and Police chief, perhaps we have a bigger problem in TO than guns!
Thanks for clarifying that folks. I only go in there maybe every couple of years, I saw the new floors & railings: epic fail, bought several bottles of hand soap on sale at Fruits & Passion last fall: success - so I'm not familiar with the layout very well. Other than that I only go to Canadian Tire, Marks & The Bay at Queen Street but I walk outside to get there. Malls give me a headache, I don't know why.
nfitz
Superstar
So gun deaths are down, but guns are more of a problem??? Gun deaths are the best statistic we have, that's always reported. If stats are suggesting that guns are more of a problem, but gun deaths are dropping, this would suggest there is some change in reporting, or bias.
Either that, or H&S and gun-handling training for gang members has paid off.
dt_toronto_geek
Superstar
I was just commenting that I see these big gun hauls on the news, propaganda or not - and Blair's comment that I recall.
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gabe
Guest
Luka Magnotta is big world news but the story broke a week ago. This shooting happened yesterday.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
Back in 2007, there was a shooting death in Mississauga Square One. In 2011, there was another shooting at Square One. What makes this shooting different is that there is multiple victims, mostly innocents bystanders and two "known to police".
SP!RE
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In reponse to pg. 2 of this thread, I felt Rob Ford did a good job. He was tasteful and encouraged people to continue on as they normally would. I think it's hard to find fault without nitpicking in this case.
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Ramako
Moderator
CityPainter
Active Member
All statistics show that Toronto is a safe city, but incidents like this one have a way of transcending statistics because of their shocking it-could-have-been-me nature. Even if the death toll remains at only one (a known criminal, not a bystander) and the injured recover, people will not forget the brazen fashion in which bullets were fired into a food court where almost every Torontonian has been at some point. Emotion is more powerful than mathematics. But when you keep in mind that Yonge/Dundas is the busiest intersection in the country and the Eaton Centre receives over 50 million visitors per year (more than the entire population of Canada!) you realize that bad things happen there more as a result of mere statistics, rather than because it's a particularly bad or dangerous place.
The Jane Creba incident is being referenced along with this one as proof there is a "gun problem" or Toronto is generally violent, while in fact the seven year gap between shootings actually proves how rare such events are in Toronto. Anecdotally, I remember back in the 90s attending Ryerson when shootings and other violence in the area were much, much more common.
To provide a little perspective, last weekend (Memorial Day weekend) in Chicago there were a total of 40 separate shootings causing 10 deaths, several of whom were bystanders. In one 90 minute period alone there were 13 shootings. This is in a city with a very similar population to the GTA. Yesterday's shooting was a disgusting incident, but one act by one idiot doesn't change the fact that Toronto is statistically very safe. We need to react accordingly.
I only wish that when bad things happened in Toronto the rest of the country would support us, as they do when disasters happen in small towns, rather than use it as a lame reason to say "I told you Toronto was a shit hole." I'm glad there's going to be a vigil tonight at Dundas Square, which will hopefully be an event that lets us remember that 99.999% of Torontonians are good people who are as shocked by this as anyone else would be. Toronto is a big city, but this is not routine for us -- it hurts to see a tragedy happen in our home.
The Jane Creba incident is being referenced along with this one as proof there is a "gun problem" or Toronto is generally violent, while in fact the seven year gap between shootings actually proves how rare such events are in Toronto. Anecdotally, I remember back in the 90s attending Ryerson when shootings and other violence in the area were much, much more common.
To provide a little perspective, last weekend (Memorial Day weekend) in Chicago there were a total of 40 separate shootings causing 10 deaths, several of whom were bystanders. In one 90 minute period alone there were 13 shootings. This is in a city with a very similar population to the GTA. Yesterday's shooting was a disgusting incident, but one act by one idiot doesn't change the fact that Toronto is statistically very safe. We need to react accordingly.
I only wish that when bad things happened in Toronto the rest of the country would support us, as they do when disasters happen in small towns, rather than use it as a lame reason to say "I told you Toronto was a shit hole." I'm glad there's going to be a vigil tonight at Dundas Square, which will hopefully be an event that lets us remember that 99.999% of Torontonians are good people who are as shocked by this as anyone else would be. Toronto is a big city, but this is not routine for us -- it hurts to see a tragedy happen in our home.
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SP!RE
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What bothers me are when people reduce discourse to simple answers, ie. "There should be heightened security there from now on."
Heightened security? What do people think should have happened differently? This all happened in the span of about one minute. Would people have preferred that mall security start shooting at the suspect? Do people want to have metal detectors installed in malls? No thanks.
There is no "ceiling" we can eventually hit where security is high enough that crime occurs 0 times per year. There will ALWAYS be SOME crime, and the idea is to keep it as low as possible using methods that are effective. The answers aren't as simple or cheap as "more/higher security".
To keep crime low, like we generally do in Canada, you need to work on creating safe and caring communities, helping the mentally ill, and reducing poverty/increasing inequality.
But to increase security? Sounds like an emotional knee-jerk reaction, a "simple answer" that doesn't pay attention to the true causes of rare crimes like this one, and is an ineffective answer that would in the end just create more irrational fear and hassle for people.
Fortunately, most of the discourse has stuck on the course of "This is a safe city, and this incident does not change that. Go enjoy your city as you would have any day before yesterday" which is great and a great approach for the people of Toronto. The only calls for heightened security I've heard so far have been from a couple family members of victims, and that is completely understandable since this would be a particularly emotional event for them and would illicit an emotional response.
Meanwhile, the war on poverty and inequality, guns, gangs and violence must continue with real, solid solutions rooted in evidence.
/end rant.
Heightened security? What do people think should have happened differently? This all happened in the span of about one minute. Would people have preferred that mall security start shooting at the suspect? Do people want to have metal detectors installed in malls? No thanks.
There is no "ceiling" we can eventually hit where security is high enough that crime occurs 0 times per year. There will ALWAYS be SOME crime, and the idea is to keep it as low as possible using methods that are effective. The answers aren't as simple or cheap as "more/higher security".
To keep crime low, like we generally do in Canada, you need to work on creating safe and caring communities, helping the mentally ill, and reducing poverty/increasing inequality.
But to increase security? Sounds like an emotional knee-jerk reaction, a "simple answer" that doesn't pay attention to the true causes of rare crimes like this one, and is an ineffective answer that would in the end just create more irrational fear and hassle for people.
Fortunately, most of the discourse has stuck on the course of "This is a safe city, and this incident does not change that. Go enjoy your city as you would have any day before yesterday" which is great and a great approach for the people of Toronto. The only calls for heightened security I've heard so far have been from a couple family members of victims, and that is completely understandable since this would be a particularly emotional event for them and would illicit an emotional response.
Meanwhile, the war on poverty and inequality, guns, gangs and violence must continue with real, solid solutions rooted in evidence.
/end rant.
AKS
Senior Member
I somehow feel that making this such a big issue will just encourage more gangsters to have more shootings on busy locations to make a name for themselves. Like "I did so and so and the whole world paid attention to me" type of thing.
As for the Ford incident. I don't think it's fair to call him on that. I'm sure he's speechless after what happened. It could have been his kid that got shot. It could have been anyone's kid. That just proves he's human.
I think we do have a gangster/criminal problem though. It seems like criminals who commit crimes in the US comes to hide in Canada. It seems like a safe haven for them here.
dt_toronto_geek
Superstar
jcphoenix
New Member
This is really sad but I do think it's pretty uncommon in Toronto and Canada as an overall. That said, I recall visiting my friend for a couple days who lives at the Opus @ Pantages building end of last year and there was a shooting right near Fran's Diner on the day I was leaving.
AKS
Senior Member
It's not uncommon. It wasn't made such a big deal because there weren't many casualties maybe. I think earlier this week or last, there was a gunfire that went off in one of the downtown stations causing the trains to be shut down. It's happened before a few years ago too. And recently I heard there was a shoot out at STC as well. Also during the new years or something, there was a shooting at Dundas Square. When I hear about a shooting at a subway station downtown now, I'm not phased by it anymore. I just find it a nuisance.