[nfitz]

I have already suggested before that College, Dundas, Queen, and King be converted into one-way streets so that the streetcars can have their own right-of-way like the Transit City lines. Plus, the Jane LRT can also be extended to Union. More GO stations can be added too.

An interesting idea for King and Queen. I'm not sure that much disturbance is worth it for Dundas and College. They aren't as congested in rush-hour. In my experience, the biggest delay on these lines, is that once the streetcar is full, it has to stop at all stops and takes a while to load and unload. I've sat through 3 lights at Yonge just waiting for everyone to get off, and file in one-by-one through the front door. You'd get most of what you want to achieve on these lines simply by going to POP fares, all-door loading, some priority transit signals, and keeping (and enforcing) traffic out of the centre lanes for a few blocks in rush-hour without having to spend much money.

 

[Dan416]

Some people would surely transfer at Pape to a fully grade-separated LRT...the problem is that a fully grade-separated light rail DRL would be virtually the same price as an actual subway line, only with less capacity (and that capacity would be needed).

The DRL becomes powerful and extremely useful when extended up Don Mills (the relative benefit is lower in the west because the Spadina line has already relieved Yonge on that side of the city); it'd take people off the whole length of Yonge, not just people transferring at Bloor, it'd take people off Danforth, it'd take people off downtown streetcar lines, it'd take people off the YUS loop (like GO users at Union using YUS in the reverse direction). YUS loop stops like Dundas/Queen/King are still going to be destinations for many DRL/Don Mills riders, but they can take the subway back north a stop or three at Union. There is a risk that PATH could be overwhelmed, but improving the reliability and speed of streetcar line like Queen would enable many DRL riders to get off at Queen and take the streetcar west into the core. The DRL gives people many more options, and when useful lines all connect with other in useful places, people can start transferring all over the place and overall ridership will soar.

Interesting points. I used your suggestion to re-route my Queen/DRL up Don Mills via Pape as you suggest. I ran it up to Eglinton, which looked like a natural terminus.

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=U...499509425181132370.00044a0285de24508b14e&z=10

 

[salmonz]

Just Built It

Just build the subway and you'll be set for the next 100 years of commuter travel along Eglinton.

 

[urbanfan89]

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=U...d=108050198920242492381.0004527bde6dbce2a1662

This is my DRL proposal.

Red lines: elevated
Green lines: at grade
Blue: underground

Red points: Transfer to surface buses
Blue points: Bus/Subway integrated terminals

 

[Whoaccio]

Not quite sure how the DRL fantasy map idea got started, but never one to miss out on DRL porn:

Dashed line: at or above grade construction (think Yonge in between St. Clair & Davisville)
Solid line: Below grade cut & cover
Fat Pink: Deep Tunnel Bore

http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCP&cp=43.676687~-79.364376&style=r&lvl=13&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=28298162&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&cid=A043444D726AA4E8!335&encType=1

Length is roughly 26km, with an avg stop spacing of 800m. Considering the stupendous redevelopment potential along the line (esp. in East York) I figure good chunks of the line could be paid for by developers. In time, if ridership justified, the line could be drawn up Don Mills.

 

[dowlingm]

I like DRL proposals further north than King because otherwise you reinforce one-way peak pedestrian flows in the Dundas-Front area. Queen makes most sense to me with wide stop lengths and the streetcar line being local transit east of Roncesvalles?

 

[W. K. Lis]

Getting off topic. Link to Downtown Relief Line. This thread is about the Eglinton Crosstown Corridor.

 

[MisterF]

yeah, but the biggest points of pressure on the streetcar network south of bloor are all in the west. along with the city's biggest redevelopment projects. it needs to go west, at least as far as bloor.

I agree. What I've been thinking is that a full subway DRL can go from Don Mills to Pape through downtown, and along the rail corridor to Dundas West. From there electrified regional rail as per the Metrolinx plan would be enough to serve MCC, the airport, Brampton, etc., especially with the Jane and Eglinton LRT subways. The subway and regional lines could share the rail corridor from Dundas West to downtown.

 

[Rainforest]

I agree with the view that the eastern wing of DRL subway is most urgently needed, and it should go north further than Bloor. Eglinton / Don Mills would be a good Phase I terminus, resulting in a line that intercepts both Danforth and Eglinton E passengers and provides effective relief for Yonge. Note that Yonge trains are pretty packed all the way to Eglinton during the peak.

Whether DRL should continue as HRT subway north of Eglinton, how soon, and the preferred route, will partly depend on the implementation of GO REX on the RH and Stouffville GO lines.

The western wing of DRL might be needed long term, but isn't urgent, as there is the Spadina line.

The best routing through downtown would be north of Union, to avoid Union becoming the single point of failure. Could be Queen, Richmond, Adelaide, or Wellington. Advantages of Wellington would be lesser disruption while its is being built (the street is neither a major streetcar route nor a DVP ramp like Richmond and Adelaide), and the possibility to create 3 transfer points with the YUS line (King, Union, and St. Andrew). Unfortunately, any route north of Union will be more expensive than the one via Union.

 

[cacruden]

I like DRL proposals further north than King because otherwise you reinforce one-way peak pedestrian flows in the Dundas-Front area. Queen makes most sense to me with wide stop lengths and the streetcar line being local transit east of Roncesvalles?

DRL along Queen makes no sense to me (even though it is closer to where I live), since as far as I can see there is not much major dense development taking place along there (it is further south). There seems also to be a reluctance to "change" Queen St.

If you build a subway along Queen St. it will be impossible for Queen St. to maintain it's "flavour" since there will be a push for higher density development - the artsi/fashion stores will then be forced to move to another location.

 

[RedRocket191]

DRL along Queen makes no sense to me (even though it is closer to where I live), since as far as I can see there is not much major dense development taking place along there (it is further south). There seems also to be a reluctance to "change" Queen St.

If you build a subway along Queen St. it will be impossible for Queen St. to maintain it's "flavour" since there will be a push for higher density development - the artsi/fashion stores will then be forced to move to another location.

It won't be because of a push for higher development. Zoning bylaws *should* keep it under control. The push might come from increased desirability pushing rents too high for the mom and pop shops to afford.

 

[Whoaccio]

Is it really that bad if Queen street looses it's character? It wouldn't be the first time, neighborhoods change their character all the time. Nine times out of ten, it is a natural part of keeping a dynamic city. Would Toronto be better off had Yorkville not gentrified away from a hippy hang out? Queen street is nice, but I don't think that in the long term (20+ years) it is desirable to keep things the way they are. Presumably, once the stores that make Queen what it is today, are pushed out they will relocate to another neighborhood and the cycle will go on.

 

[toraerach]

The best routing through downtown would be north of Union, to avoid Union becoming the single point of failure. Could be Queen, Richmond, Adelaide, or Wellington. Advantages of Wellington would be lesser disruption while its is being built (the street is neither a major streetcar route nor a DVP ramp like Richmond and Adelaide), and the possibility to create 3 transfer points with the YUS line (King, Union, and St. Andrew). Unfortunately, any route north of Union will be more expensive than the one via Union.

The Wellington alignment is an interesting idea. How much development potential/trip generators are available on this route though?

 

[toraerach]

Is it really that bad if Queen street looses it's character? It wouldn't be the first time, neighborhoods change their character all the time. Nine times out of ten, it is a natural part of keeping a dynamic city. Would Toronto be better off had Yorkville not gentrified away from a hippy hang out? Queen street is nice, but I don't think that in the long term (20+ years) it is desirable to keep things the way they are. Presumably, once the stores that make Queen what it is today, are pushed out they will relocate to another neighborhood and the cycle will go on.

When Yorkville gentrified there was another logical downtown location for the artists to flock to. When Queen West was gentrified they were pushed further and further down the street to where they are now. Is there another logical location for artists to move on to? Will the rising prices downtown force them into a less central location? Are there any such places that display the same amount of character architecturally and historically? Who will be pushed out of their neighbourhood to make way for this transformation? I don't know the answers and no one else really does either. The anxiety about losing Queen St. is also the fear that maybe it is no longer possible for this type of neighbourhood to sprout up any more. We shall see what happens.

Gentrification has already taken a lot of this street, it will continue regardless of any new subway line. The pace of redevelopment might quicken and we'd probably lose a lot of historic architecture before we can plan appropriately. That's my concern really - a subway might make things happen too fast if the City doesn't act to protect the area.

 

[Hipster Duck]

The anxiety about losing Queen St. is also the fear that maybe it is no longer possible for this type of neighbourhood to sprout up any more. We shall see what happens.

I used to think so too, but now that I live in Phoenix, where less than 1% of the built area can be classified as "classically urban", I am pretty confident that vibrant neighbourhoods can spring up out of a rather hostile suburban environment. It's actually done so here, and with surprising vigour.

Once the day arrives where artists have been finally pushed out of the last ungentrified strip of "urban Toronto", like, say, St. Clair Gardens or far-eastern stretches of the Danforth, expect them to begin colonizing the bungalows of O'Connor Drive or the strip malls of the Queensway, etc.