[Rainforest]

That sounds just about right.

Except now that subways are being mentioned, Giambrone et al. are freaking out. I don't get why the NDP seems to hate subways now. Wasn't it Bob Rae who started Eglinton and Sheppard?

Well, for sure Mr. Giambrone is not stupid. Perhaps he and Mr. Miller have a legitimate concern that the Province makes big promises but does not deliver, and prefer to stick to their bird in the hand.

Or, perhaps this is a clever negotiation tactics. "Oh, not another subway ... don't throw us into the briar patch ... OK, we will generously accept your subway funding, provided that you secure the funds for the whole project from the onset."

Not to mention the downtown councillors got nothing

Yes, this is quite surprising that Transit City came out without any route south of Bloor, save the new section of WWLRT. Logically, one would expect the Jane and Don Mills lines drawn into downtown.

Perhaps they realized that LRT won't cope with the downtown demand, yet drawing a subway there would open a can of worms (other wards demanding a subway, too). So, they decided to get the LRT network funded and start construction, prior to opening the DRL debate.

(I admit that my guesses given in this post are nothing more than guesses, unlike the guess in my previous post which was based on standard psychology.)

 

[allabootmatt]

Well, for sure Mr. Giambrone is not stupid.

Perhaps they realized that LRT won't cope with the downtown demand, yet drawing a subway there would open a can of worms (other wards demanding a subway, too). So, they decided to get the LRT network funded and start construction, prior to opening the DRL debate.

(I admit that my guesses given in this post are nothing more than guesses, unlike the guess in my previous post which was based on standard psychology.)

I think Mr. Giambrone's constituents should be asking him some hard questions about why he is intent on bringing not one, not two, but three new rail lines to north Scarborough, but has nothing for his own ward. And why he so loves to talk down the DRL when that ward would, bar none, benefit from it more than anywhere else.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

"Sorry, Scarborough councillors, we literally cannot find $1.2B to replace the RT with the subway extension you're suggesting, so here's over $3B of other projects to make it up to you."

 

[RedRocket191]

Yes, this is quite surprising that Transit City came out without any route south of Bloor, save the new section of WWLRT. Logically, one would expect the Jane and Don Mills lines drawn into downtown.

According to the mayor, there is apparently an entire phase of transit city waiting in the wings. The extensions into the core of Jane and Don Mills were to be part of this phase.

 

[Rainforest]

That's true; the north Scarborough plans as they stand now, are ... well, somewhat strange. I can't suggest a reasonable explanation for those.

 

[Rainforest]

According to the mayor, there is apparently an entire phase of transit city waiting in the wings. The extensions into the core of Jane and Don Mills were to be part of this phase.

Yes, there was a talk about such extensions.

But what I wanted to say ... if we wrote Transit City Phase I and want to sell it to the public, it looks nicer with Jane and Don Mills lines drawn into downtown from the onset, rather than as vague future extensions. So, if we don't draw them into downtown anyway, perhaps this is because we really want to see a subway there.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

It's Miller's attempt to use transit dollars to fix social problems...basketball courts and youth employment programs haven't cured Malvern or Jane & Finch of all their problems, but a few billion dollars worth of streetcars and their attendant wholesome Avenues developments just might!

 

[Hydrogen]

Subway.

Start fresh.

 

[Rainforest]

Subway.

Start fresh.

Should be a right combination of subways and light rail, within the available funding.

And of course the "right" combination is hard to define, let alone to agree upon.

 

[unimaginative2]

The western segment of the DRL, especially above Bloor, can easily be served by the upgraded GO line with 15-minute frequencies. The eastern segment through downtown and up Pape and Don Mills should be a subway. That's the only way to attract transfer passengers from the east-west bus routes. Nobody's going to transfer from their bus to a surface streetcar. They'll just continue to ride west to Yonge, exacerbating crowding on that line and maintaining the existing long travel times.

 

[toraerach]

The western segment of the DRL, especially above Bloor, can easily be served by the upgraded GO line with 15-minute frequencies. The eastern segment through downtown and up Pape and Don Mills should be a subway. That's the only way to attract transfer passengers from the east-west bus routes. Nobody's going to transfer from their bus to a surface streetcar. They'll just continue to ride west to Yonge, exacerbating crowding on that line and maintaining the existing long travel times.

I agree completely, but the DRL also needs to attract people off of the Bloor-Danforth line. If I was going downtown from Scarborough, by the time I get to the subway (first transferring from a bus to the RT and then to B-D) I'm not going to transfer to LRT at Pape even if it is below grade. I'd just wait til I got to Yonge. Besides if the DRL was built as LRT it would be packed from day one. I would imagine most people would transfer from Don Mills to B-D anyways so the relief part would be lost.

Eglinton would probably work in one way or another as LRT or subway. The purpose of the DRL would be completely lost if the Y-U-S line remained the fastest way to get to and around downtown.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Some people would surely transfer at Pape to a fully grade-separated LRT...the problem is that a fully grade-separated light rail DRL would be virtually the same price as an actual subway line, only with less capacity (and that capacity would be needed).

The DRL becomes powerful and extremely useful when extended up Don Mills (the relative benefit is lower in the west because the Spadina line has already relieved Yonge on that side of the city); it'd take people off the whole length of Yonge, not just people transferring at Bloor, it'd take people off Danforth, it'd take people off downtown streetcar lines, it'd take people off the YUS loop (like GO users at Union using YUS in the reverse direction). YUS loop stops like Dundas/Queen/King are still going to be destinations for many DRL/Don Mills riders, but they can take the subway back north a stop or three at Union. There is a risk that PATH could be overwhelmed, but improving the reliability and speed of streetcar line like Queen would enable many DRL riders to get off at Queen and take the streetcar west into the core. The DRL gives people many more options, and when useful lines all connect with other in useful places, people can start transferring all over the place and overall ridership will soar.

 

[doady]

The western segment of the DRL, especially above Bloor, can easily be served by the upgraded GO line with 15-minute frequencies. The eastern segment through downtown and up Pape and Don Mills should be a subway. That's the only way to attract transfer passengers from the east-west bus routes. Nobody's going to transfer from their bus to a surface streetcar. They'll just continue to ride west to Yonge, exacerbating crowding on that line and maintaining the existing long travel times.

I think you are right. There is already a north-south subway west of Yonge anyways, so only the eastern part of the DRL is really needed.

 

[allabootmatt]

yeah, but the biggest points of pressure on the streetcar network south of bloor are all in the west. along with the city's biggest redevelopment projects. it needs to go west, at least as far as bloor.

 

[doady]

The streetcar lines themselves should be improved. A DLR west would not solve whatever problems the streetcars have. In fact, it would probably just make them worse.

I have already suggested before that College, Dundas, Queen, and King be converted into one-way streets so that the streetcars can have their own right-of-way like the Transit City lines. Plus, the Jane LRT can also be extended to Union. More GO stations can be added too.