[Mike in TO]

Small Update:

• A report to the City of Toronto's Government Management Committee for Nov 9th recommends authority be granted to the TTC to negotiate the acquisition, or if necessary initiate expropriation proceedings, for nearly 47 acres of vacant land at the site of the former Kodak plant. The lands are located at 3500 Eglinton Avenue West and 55 Ray Avenue and are owned by Zeehan Capital Inc. and Sarah Island Properties Inc.
• The sites would be developed with new maintenance and storage facilities to accommodate vehicles for the Eglinton Crosstown LRT.

 

[kEiThZ]

The time-frame. We can afford some subway construction each year. But if we add 1-km or so a year, it would take until 2040 or so before Eglinton was finished; compared to 2018 for the LRT ... and that's assuming that Eglinton was at the top of the heap.

Who says you have to go 1km a year when building a subway? And do you honestly believe that Eglinton will be finished by 2018 with that long a tunnel in the middle and that many major transfer points?

 

[nfitz]

Who says you have to go 1km a year when building a subway?

I was just pulling a number out of my ass based on budget constraints. Could certainly go faster if that was only thing being built. And probably a bit faster to get the first 10 km or so that is currently planned as subway.

And do you honestly believe that Eglinton will be finished by 2018 with that long a tunnel in the middle and that many major transfer points?

That is what TTC is predicting as recently as November 4, 2009. With construction scheduled to start in 2010, an eight-year construction period for 10 km of subway and 20 km of LRT doesn't seem particularly aggresive. In London they started Crossrail construction in 2009 with completion scheduled for 2017, and that's 22 km of tunnel and 80 km or so of surface upgrades costing about CAN$28-billion.

I'd think that if we get the Pan-Am games, there would be movement to try and accelerate part of it so that the first opening in 2015 instead of 2016.

 

[kEiThZ]

I was just pulling a number out of my ass based on budget constraints. Could certainly go faster if that was only thing being built. And probably a bit faster to get the first 10 km or so that is currently planned as subway.

Imagine if they built the Eglinton LRT subway at 1 km per year.

If they put as much fervour and resources into a subway plan as they are doing for Transit City, it would most certainly not be 1-2km a year. It would be at least 5km or more per year and the stations would be going into operation as they got built.

That is what TTC is predicting as recently as November 4, 2009. With construction scheduled to start in 2010, an eight-year construction period for 10 km of subway and 20 km of LRT doesn't seem particularly aggresive. In London they started Crossrail construction in 2009 with completion scheduled for 2017, and that's 22 km of tunnel and 80 km or so of surface upgrades costing about CAN$28-billion.

Let's not compare Toronto to London shall we? They are in different leagues.

I'd think that if we get the Pan-Am games, there would be movement to try and accelerate part of it so that the first opening in 2015 instead of 2016.

That might just be the airport to the Spadina line.

 

[nfitz]

Imagine if they built the Eglinton LRT subway at 1 km per year.

With 9 years between now and completion; and 10 km, that's about what they are targeting!

Let's not compare Toronto to London shall we? They are in different leagues.

If they can do twice as much tunnelling and 5 times as much surface work - spending 7 times as much money in exactly the same amount of time then they are in a different league!

But surely this only demonstrates that the 8-year construction time-frame isn't overly difficult. The Canada Line, while simpler and shorter, only took 4 years.

 

[Eug]

So, will the 2015 Pan Am games have any impact on the funding or the schedule of this?

 

[hbl33]

Not likely, in fact at the best situation one third of TC would be completed and the rest of the areas are still construction zones.

as for the Eglinton corridor...

My preference is to build a subway; in addition to known benefits, it would feel makes more sense as it is the busiest in Toronto other than Yonge and Bloor sts. However, seeing that LRT has been chosen, I don't think it is bad either. What I would feel skeptical is the demand over the capacity. If Eglinton LRT is chosen... would it be capable by itself? Or another LRT should be build as well along these roads? Say, Wilson/York Mills? St. Clair? Lawrence Ave.?

 

[kettal]

My preference is to build a subway; in addition to known benefits, it would feel makes more sense as it is the busiest in Toronto other than Yonge and Bloor sts.

Busiest in what sense?

 

[whatever]

It's a minor point, but are those the official "colours" for the lines? It seems odd to me to reuse blue, green, and purple (albeit in different shades) when other lines are already using those colours.

 

[Second_in_pie]

It's a minor point, but are those the official "colours" for the lines? It seems odd to me to reuse blue, green, and purple (albeit in different shades) when other lines are already using those colours.

I believe that currently, Eglinton is a light blue, Jane is Green, WWLRT and SELRT are purple, Kingston Road is orange, brown or a mixture of both, and Finch is red. Or at least that's what the TTC people think the right colours for the lines are (I guess they assume the WWLRT and SELRT won't be mixing or something?)

If I could input my opinion, I always thought of Eglinton as more of a blue, kinda a bluey cobalt or really pale blue. Does anyone else get this feeling? And also, is the DRL red?

 

[hbl33]

Busiest in what sense?

I suppose, the busiest bus route in Toronto, due to the frequency of bus services. I have not seen other routes with this much frequencies. I might be wrong, but this is why most of the discussion about TC is focused on this route. Probably, to alleviate the demand for bus services? Relieve congestion at midtown? More development potential?

 

[Rainforest]

If Eglinton LRT is chosen... would it be capable by itself? Or another LRT should be build as well along these roads? Say, Wilson/York Mills? St. Clair? Lawrence Ave.?

If Eglinton LRT is chosen, it won't be above capacity for a few decades at least. All models predict the demand below 10,000 people per hour per direction. They are designing the line for 3-car trains, each car capable of carrying about 175 passengers. To handle 10,000 pphpd, they would need to run 20 trains per hour, or a train every 3 minutes. This is certainly doable.

At the same time, if they build subway, it will attact more passengers than LRT. Many of those heading to Bloor-Danforth subway today, will switch to Eglinton. So will some of air travellers. Because of that, the demand for Eglinton subway, if it is built, will likely exceed 10,000 pphpd.

 

[Second_in_pie]

If Eglinton LRT is chosen, it won't be above capacity for a few decades at least. All models predict the demand below 10,000 people per hour per direction. They are designing the line for 3-car trains, each car capable of carrying about 175 passengers. To handle 10,000 pphpd, they would need to run 20 trains per hour, or a train every 3 minutes. This is certainly doable.

At the same time, if they build subway, it will attact more passengers than LRT. Many of those heading to Bloor-Danforth subway today, will switch to Eglinton. So will some of air travellers. Because of that, the demand for Eglinton subway, if it is built, will likely exceed 10,000 pphpd.

Again, the TTC can give any ridership "prediction" they want. You know there was virtually no study done on this, and they were in no hurry to try to see how many riders it was going to actually attract, because it was going to be LRT anyways. The TTC went into the project with absolutely no head for building it as a subway. Even if it had ridership projections of 30k pphpd, I doubt they'd even have a second glance at building a subway instead.

What's the B-D's peak ridership? Maybe 20k pphpd? Maybe a bit more? I don't see how Eglinton couldn't reach that. Not only would it divert a majority of riders off the B-D (whether it's LRT or not,) but it would also link people to the airport. Of course, the link to the airport is really only relevant if the entire west line is LRT, but that link could potentially bring in tens of thousands of riders a day.

At least in the west end, it could easily divert every N-S bus rider that doesn't work in Etobicoke. The Richview Corridor is a prime location for new high-density development, but if we're not supposed to base things on that, there's already a huge number of people in the corridor that could easily be swayed to take the subway instead of driving. There's also a fair bit of development already, with large groups of apartments up and around Scarlett Road and Martin Grove. Finally, there's the airport link, the very important thing that the LRT is being advertised for, which could get thousands of passengers a day.

 

[Fresh Start]

Again, the TTC can give any ridership "prediction" they want. You know there was virtually no study done on this, and they were in no hurry to try to see how many riders it was going to actually attract, because it was going to be LRT anyways. The TTC went into the project with absolutely no head for building it as a subway. Even if it had ridership projections of 30k pphpd, I doubt they'd even have a second glance at building a subway instead.

What's the B-D's peak ridership? Maybe 20k pphpd? Maybe a bit more? I don't see how Eglinton couldn't reach that. Not only would it divert a majority of riders off the B-D (whether it's LRT or not,) but it would also link people to the airport. Of course, the link to the airport is really only relevant if the entire west line is LRT, but that link could potentially bring in tens of thousands of riders a day.

At least in the west end, it could easily divert every N-S bus rider that doesn't work in Etobicoke. The Richview Corridor is a prime location for new high-density development, but if we're not supposed to base things on that, there's already a huge number of people in the corridor that could easily be swayed to take the subway instead of driving. There's also a fair bit of development already, with large groups of apartments up and around Scarlett Road and Martin Grove. Finally, there's the airport link, the very important thing that the LRT is being advertised for, which could get thousands of passengers a day.

Precisely SIP. Today the Eglinton corridor sees about 150,000 ppd or 9400pphpd. That is higher than the total number of riders for the Bloor-Danforth streetcar at the time of its update. Then there's the incentive for thousands of more transit users from Mississauga and the airport to deisre utilizing such a subway line instead of relying on GO Transit or a long bus trip to the Bloor-Danforth. So easily 250,000ppd or 12,500pphpd is a reasonable Day One service projection that the TTC, if not so blindly focused on LRT, should've taken notice of.

 

[Rainforest]

What's the B-D's peak ridership? Maybe 20k pphpd? Maybe a bit more? I don't see how Eglinton couldn't reach that. Not only would it divert a majority of riders off the B-D (whether it's LRT or not,) but it would also link people to the airport. Of course, the link to the airport is really only relevant if the entire west line is LRT, but that link could potentially bring in tens of thousands of riders a day.

Ridership in this corridor will certainly depend on whether it is subway or LRT.

If it is subway (and long), then indeed it will divert a large portion of B-D ridership. So, the total of at least 12k pphpd is very likely (B-D is 24k now), maybe even more given the expected overall ridership growth and the contribution from air travellers.

If it is LRT, it will divert midtown-to-midtown trips only. For trips to CBD, which are the largest contribution, it would make more sense to keep using B-D. So, the TTC's model (that predicts about 8k) seems reasonable for this case.