[Fresh Start]

If not ICTS, then would elevated LRT be able to work along the Eglinton corridor? Seeing as it'll cost roughly $5 billion already, why not strive for full grade separation along the entire route. Elevated through Richview and over the 401/27 into Pearson, underground between Weston and Leslie then elevated again straight across into the above ground SRT stop at Kennedy. Makes sense, right?

 

[nfitz]

Seeing as it'll cost roughly $5 billion already, why not strive for full grade separation along the entire route.

Your kidding right ... we have massive provincial and federal deficits. We'll be lucky to keep the budgets already set; I can't imagine for a second that anymore money will be coming from either level of government for at least half-a-decade.

 

[kEiThZ]

Your kidding right ... we have massive provincial and federal deficits. We'll be lucky to keep the budgets already set; I can't imagine for a second that anymore money will be coming from either level of government for at least half-a-decade.

It all comes down to the timeframe. If the goal is to get a full line up from airpport to Kennedy by 2020 then Transit City is best. If the goal is to build a sound network than it'll take far more than a decade and will require a consistent plan that governments stick to in good times and in bad. It requires incremental expansions when governments have money and maybe even accepting some stagnation when governments don't. I guess it depends where you stand on the ability of governments to deliver. I am an optimist.

 

[nfitz]

I guess after over 30 years of stagnation, I'm a pessimist! Compared to what has been done since they started the Spadina subway extension in the early 1970s, Transit City represents a monumental step forward in building a network.

I guess if you're in it for the long haul, and looking at the post-25 year plan, and don't care if it's not running until 2050 then I can understand where your coming from.

 

[kEiThZ]

As a single late 20-something, I want a legacy for my progeny. That should give you an idea of my patience and my optimism.

I do believe though that the last 30 years will not be how the next 30 years plays out. The concerns about climate change and the impact of population growth will be significant drivers...with the latter more than the former. Grid lock will do more to promote transit than any ad campaign, gas tax or David Suzuki/Al Gore lecture ever will.

In the last 30 years we got the Sheppard stubway, the SRT and the Downsview extension. This during a time of deficits far higher (relatively speaking) than what we face today, with significantly less incentive to build transit (less population, shorter commuting distances, etc) and a utterly anti-urban provincial government. That's not a situation likely to return.

 

[Second_in_pie]

I guess after over 30 years of stagnation, I'm a pessimist! Compared to what has been done since they started the Spadina subway extension in the early 1970s, Transit City represents a monumental step forward in building a network.

I guess if you're in it for the long haul, and looking at the post-25 year plan, and don't care if it's not running until 2050 then I can understand where your coming from.

This is what's wrong with Transit City. The government's going "here's some money so let's try to make up for all the plans we missed out on," with absolutely no intention for sound network planning.

Newsflash, that's how transit is built. You can't magically go "let's build a great network" and get it done in 10 years, that's just now how it works. It should be an investment. For projects like Eglinton and the DRL, they could get it started and be finished in 7 or 8 years, providing service as quickly as Transit City would. But then the key is they can continue extending the lines so the network grows.

If you have doubts about gradual network-building, just take a look at New York, London, Madrid, Paris, Moscow, Tokyo or Hong Kong. Just a glance at the wikipedia page for their metros should show you how good networks got built.

 

[EnviroTO]

I think people are getting hung up on the idea that Transit City is a replacement plan for a subway network. Transit City will deliver reliable service to the whole city in a short time frame. It will not stop future subway growth. There can still be a subway plan beyond Transit City. I would rather have Transit City now and get a 5 to 6 subway extension or line be opened every 5 years afterwards than simply wait to have a full network when gradual subway extensions get around to it..

 

[nfitz]

If you have doubts about gradual network-building, just take a look at New York, London, Madrid, Paris, Moscow, Tokyo or Hong Kong. Just a glance at the wikipedia page for their metros should show you how good networks got built.

Are you going to teach me not to piss upwind next? Honestly, after all the historical comments I've made on various systems over the years.

If you lot are in this for the long haul, I have no idea why a plan that supposed to mostly play out in 10 years even bothers you; particularly while there is significant subway work going on during the same timeframe!

Furthermore, if successful, then the additional passenger growth of the TTC is going to start pushing more subway. Finch and Eglinton (and perhaps Sheppard) LRT users are going to increase the use of the Yonge subway. The increased LRT growth in Scaborough will make the construction of subway at some point more viable ... and hopefully as express to supplement the existing LRT. More passengers on the Scarborough LRT (and on the Morningside LRT) will increase the load on Danforth, further straining Bloor-Yonge, making the DRL subway more likely. All these lines will help get people to GO stations increasing the usage here.

And this new 10-km subway on Eglinton is the biggest project TTC have started since the early 1970s.

 

[drum118]

I was at Mississauga Planing and Development meeting last week and the land owner oppose TTC plans to the airport as it will leave them land that not allowing any real development on it.

I agree with the owner as it not that big in the first place and the LRT will have a huge impact on the other parcel.

I don't support the extension as is and needs rethinking on Metrolinx part as the Renforth station needs to be relocated to service the BRT and LRT in the same location.

The city has Zone the area that no building under 4 stories are to be built on lands not developed to date from this time forward.

Time to put that parking underground for better land use to support everything.

 

[rbt]

If you have doubts about gradual network-building, just take a look at New York, London, Madrid, Paris, Moscow, Tokyo or Hong Kong. Just a glance at the wikipedia page for their metros should show you how good networks got built.

Did you really just use Madrid as an example of good network planning? Do you have any idea how line locations are made?

 

[W. K. Lis]

November and December, 2009 Open Houses

There is an update to the TTC's Eglinton Crosstown LRT website:

The TTC and City of Toronto are hosting eight Open Houses across the study corridor in November and December 2009. TTC and City Staff will present the preferred design for both the underground and street level segments of the line. For the surface segments, final stop/passenger platform locations and traffic management strategies to provide fast and reliable LRT service will be displayed.

All Open Houses will be held from 6:30pm to 9:00pm.

• November 23
  York Memorial Collegiate (cafeteria)
  2690 Eglinton Avenue West
• November 24
  Etobicoke Olympium (2nd floor Lounge)
  590 Rathburn Road
• November 25
  Northern Secondary School (cafeteria)
  851 Mount Pleasant Road
• November 26
  Richview Collegiate (cafeteria)
  1738 Islington Avenue
• December 2
  CNIB Conference Centre
  1929 Bayview Avenue
• December 8
  Don Montgomery Community Centre
  2467 Eglinton Avenue East
• December 10
  Beth Shalom Synagogue
  1445 Eglinton Avenue West

Please see the Public Notice (PDF)

From the FAQ in the Newsletter:

The station originally proposed at Brentcliffe has been moved to Laird to best serve the Leaside community. As well, stops have been removed at Emmett and at Swift/Credit Union.

The start of construction is currently scheduled for 2010. The LRT is currently scheduled to open for service is phases, with the first phase scheduled to open in 2016. The entire line is scheduled to be open for service in 2020.

 

[Eug]

"The station originally proposed at Brentcliffe has been moved to Laird to best serve the Leaside community. As well, stops have been removed at Emmett and at Swift/Credit Union."

That seems to make more sense.

 

[Fresh Start]

I think people are getting hung up on the idea that Transit City is a replacement plan for a subway network. Transit City will deliver reliable service to the whole city in a short time frame. It will not stop future subway growth. There can still be a subway plan beyond Transit City. I would rather have Transit City now and get a 5 to 6 subway extension or line be opened every 5 years afterward than simply wait to have a full network when gradual subway extensions get around to it..

Except if we can't afford to build subways now along these corridors what makes you think that it'll be possible to do so in the future? Some of us have not drank the Koolaid. $15 billion dollars can grant the City of Toronto 50 kilometres of new subways and a network of BRT. It is Giambrone's decision to put forth light-rail as the agenda although it offers no time real advantage over buses and in many ways is proving more costly than a subway anyhow. It's fine and dandy that people want instant gratification but what good is that if it still takes hours to commute across the city with a mess of redundant transfer points? Major nodal areas warrant a subway (Airport, Mt Dennis, York-Eglinton, Yonge Eglinton Ctr, Leaside) especially when plans like Crosstown LRT lead to there having to be in place several supplemental services to compensate for the lack of a SUBWAY through the center of the 416. If the TTC really gave a crap about its ridership base it wouldn't be holding the city at ransom demanding cost-prohibitive scheme funding from the government in order to make commutes faster. It'd be out there right now introducing more express routes and reducing dwell times at stops.

 

[EnviroTO]

Except if we can't afford to build subways now along these corridors what makes you think that it'll be possible to do so in the future?

Affordability is directly tied to whether or not the spending is truly necessary. Not being able to afford a Porsche is completely different from not being able to afford a car. If an LRT is stuck in traffic or filled to capacity then the subway goes from being something people would like to have because subways are seen as the ultimate form of urban transportation convenience to something that is necessitated due to the fact there is no other way to deliver transit improvements on the route with LRT. Nobody can honestly argue against the fact that Transit City delivers improvements over the status quo. The semi-private ROWs guarantee better reliability and smooth riding rail based electric transit is preferred by most riders, can handle greater capacity, and has greater energy efficiency. One can argue that based on personal priorities or preferences that the money can be better spent on something else, subways, buses, or non-transit related items, but it will be simple a matter of personal preference. For someone living at Kipling and Finch Transit City will seem perfect. For someone who rarely goes to the airport living in a Scarborough Centre condo Transit City will seem to be lacking.

It is Giambrone's decision to put forth light-rail as the agenda although it offers no time real advantage over buses and in many ways is proving more costly than a subway anyhow.

There is no way that light rail is more costly than a subway. At most it can be similar in tunnels and stations built to be able to handle subways, at least it can be much cheaper rails in an existing roadway.

It's fine and dandy that people want instant gratification but what good is that if it still takes hours to commute across the city with a mess of redundant transfer points?

LRT is a way to reduce transfer points because it can provide service similar to a subway in a tunnel and can easily continue on multiple surface routes outside a tunnel. In most places where there is tunnelled LRT there are multiple routes through the same tunnel which branch off transfer free at the surface. With a subway the line can only go as far as it is reasonable to pay for the expensive fully grade separated line based on vehicle capacity which with a subway train of 4 cars would be near empty at the same time an LRT is full. Surface stops require no ticket booth and machinery... subway stations do. With Presto it needs to be GO Transit which is used for long trips across the city because the day a Sheppard and Eglinton subway run straight across the city and a DRL reaches both ends up to Sheppard is likely beyond our lifetimes. A transfer free LRT trip is possible.

Major nodal areas warrant a subway (Airport, Mt Dennis, York-Eglinton, Yonge Eglinton Ctr, Leaside)

Those areas, minus the airport, are getting LRT in a tunnel... it runs at the same speed as a subway and has indoor stations like a subway. The only place Transit City vehicles will run slower than a subway where there is any pressure to build a subway is on Sheppard. A subway between Kennedy and SCC will run at an identical speed to a grade-separated LRT on the same route and a subway in a tunnel under Eglinton from Weston Road to Brentcliffe will go the same speed as a LRT on the same route.

This is the almost the exact experience you will get with Transit City on Eglinton:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djSmiLlDRgY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akV8iJ9EU2Y

 

[nfitz]

Except if we can't afford to build subways now along these corridors what makes you think that it'll be possible to do so in the future?

The time-frame. We can afford some subway construction each year. But if we add 1-km or so a year, it would take until 2040 or so before Eglinton was finished; compared to 2018 for the LRT ... and that's assuming that Eglinton was at the top of the heap.