[golodhendil]

^Thanks SlickFranky. I guess someone was too angry to read properly.

 

[wyliepoon]

the question is whether icts can handle snow/cold. does icts always suck, or is it just ours that sucks?

You don't need to go to New York or Beijing to answer that question. The Detroit People Mover is the same generation of ICTS technology as our SRT.

I don't think the Detroit People Mover ever has delays in the winter (I've been on it only two or three times in my life) - except when it is overloaded with Red Wings fans after hockey games.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

With other ICTS cities, we have to consider if their lines run on the ground, elevated, or in tunnels. The SRT does all three (though the tunnel is short) and I'm not sure if the snow problems are worse on the surface sections in the middle of the line near Ellesmere and Lawrence or on the elevated stretches at each end.

 

[nfitz]

It doesn't take much Googling to find reports of the Detroit People Mover being down during snow ... though the system is so small, walking is always an option, so it may not create the hassle when the Scarborough RT is down.

I was just googling around in Detroit, and the furthest distant from any station to any other station in the loop I could find is less than 2 km, and less than a 20-minute walk - compared to Scarborough where it's about a 6-km and 75-minute walk from Kennedy station to Scarborough Town Centre.

Also in the USA, and in Michigan in particular, they will have more snow days than here; the state declares a state of emergency and tells people to stop driving with far less snow that we react to here. I've been in Detroit for one of those ... all the offices closed, and I was shocked that there was only about 5-10 cm of snow that had fallen. So the downtown peoplemover being down get's little attention, as there is no one downtown to use it.

 

[ssiguy2]

Wait just one minute! ALRT may not be my first choice but comparing the SRT to Vancouver SkyTrain is beyond absurd border line offensive.
SkyTrain had its problems at first but have been fix. Remember you are comparing the old 1980 SRT to the 2010 SkyTrain system. Last year Vancouver took a pounding of snow, a whopping 100cm in 3 weeks. By any Canadian standards that is a crap load of snow made worse by the fact that iit was still around for 6 weeks due tyo below zero temerpatures but I never recall hearing about any delays on the SkyTrain lines. Also you use the comparison of the first rendition of MK1 as comparison but the latest model MK11s are completely different.It is like comparing to current made in the 80s streetcars to the new subway cars...........the only thing they have in common is that they both run on rails.
Yes SkyTrain is more expensive to build but it is much cheaper to run not only due to automation but also much electrical costs, lower wheel maintenance, and the average SkyTrain has a 20% longer life span per person than does the average subway. The new system is fast, comfortable, smooth, reliable, and safe...............the hallmarks of great transit. As for this "doesn't have capacity" shit well just because SRT doesn't doesn't mean it couldn't. Right now the SRT holds 4 MK1 every 3 minutes during rushour, 6 in non while SkyTrain is running 17 MK1 equivalents every 6 minute thru out the day and the equivalent of 11 MK1 trains every 3 minutes and those numbers will increase by 40% in just 9 years.
Vancouver keeps its fleet and station very well maintained and wanted to make SkyTrain a success while the TTC has just let the SRT rot considering it a write-of and making it as user unfriendly as they could poissibly make itt.............................both systems got exactly what they wanted.

 

[Dan416]

First of all, it's Mark I versus Mark II, or Mark 1 versus Mark 2, not "Mark 11".

Anyway, I don't know enough about the technology to say how different Mk I is versus Mk II. But it IS the same technology regardless.

 

[Darwinkgo]

To my knowledge, the main problem with skytrain last year during the weather was the door sensors not being able to confirm they were closed/popping back open due to a sensed obstruction. But yeah certainly lessons were learn on building the SRT that were applied to later systems.

Potentially if Eglinton were to be ICTS you could order a new design of car for both that fits with the track/tunnel geometry of the SRT potentially saving millions in rebuilds without a huge cost escalation. Would also hopefully get the onboard personal off the trains at the same time.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

The entire SRT-Eglinton debate should be moot, though, because if any lines are going to be through-services at Kennedy, the reasonable option is to combine north and south and extend the subway to STC, and combine east and west by running Eglinton east of Kennedy. Few people are helped by an SRT-Eglinton line, partially because there's nothing along Eglinton that anyone from other parts of Toronto travels to in any number. The only sensible way to connect Scarborough with the rest of the city aside from downtown is the Sheppard subway - a more northerly route across town connects all the malls and universities/colleges, which accounts for the bulk of transit trips in the city when you exclude 9-5 CBD commutes.

ICTS in Toronto should be euthanized.

 

[ssiguy2]

One could simply extend the BD further east a couple of km to meet with Kingston and have the ALRT continue from Kennedy west to the airport.
Also let's talk about the myth of construction costs. Yes the SkyTrain track is more complex to set up and more expensive but what people do not mention is that the elevated section are cheaper to build than elevated subway because SkyTrain requires smaller and less weighted pillons which also be placed further apart than subway pillons due to the weight of the cars themselves being less that of subway cars. That means lower building costs, faster construction times {which saves a fortune due to labour costs}, and a smaller foot print.
If Toronto or Metrolink doesn't want ALRT then fine but it should be done on an informed and non-biased way rather than telling people it sucks due as SRT exemplifies. Anyone who states that SkyTrain is just a tonka toy has never been to Vancouver.

 

[golodhendil]

With other ICTS cities, we have to consider if their lines run on the ground, elevated, or in tunnels. The SRT does all three (though the tunnel is short) and I'm not sure if the snow problems are worse on the surface sections in the middle of the line near Ellesmere and Lawrence or on the elevated stretches at each end.

For the usual stated problem with ART (snow accumulating between the guide plate and the train's motor), I don't see how surface vs. elevated makes much of a difference. In any case, Detroit is all elevated, NYC has both surface and elevated, and Beijing has both underground and elevated.

 

[nfitz]

Last year Vancouver took a pounding of snow, a whopping 100cm in 3 weeks.

December 2008? I remember hearing reports of Skytrains closures ... and I can still find a few on the web ... including one - http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2008/12/21/bc-snowstorm.html - where they had to delay service because the doors to the cars were frozen shut ... even though the low that day was only-6.6°C (though to be fair it did get down to a low of -15°C the day before ... but that's hardly cold by Toronto standards).

 

[Voltz]

If for some reason we need ICTS style service in Toronto, we would be much better off not using linear induction technology, and sticking with more conventional technology such as Canada Line style trains or LRT as planned for the SRT rebuild.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

For the usual stated problem with ART (snow accumulating between the guide plate and the train's motor), I don't see how surface vs. elevated makes much of a difference. In any case, Detroit is all elevated, NYC has both surface and elevated, and Beijing has both underground and elevated.

You don't see why a track adjacent to fields and parking lots might end up with different snow conditions than an elevated line? Once again, I'm asking where the problems are worse on these lines. If even trace amounts of snow cause problems, only then does it not matter since any outdoor stretch will be affected.

 

[golodhendil]

You don't see why a track adjacent to fields and parking lots might end up with different snow conditions than an elevated line? Once again, I'm asking where the problems are worse on these lines. If even trace amounts of snow cause problems, only then does it not matter since any outdoor stretch will be affected.

Then that, obviously, is not a property of surface vs. elevated tracks, but of the local surroundings of the guideway. An elevated track running high above a highway median through lowrise neighbourhoods (NY) would already have very different snow conditions than another elevated track running between skyscrapers (Detroit). Heck, even different wind directions or speed would affect differently how fast snow accumulates. It would, of course, be interesting to see if any such stats are available for which sections are more prone to problems, if there is any pattern to it.

As for the amount of snow/ice that will cause problems, that is part of my question. Given that the 1-cm separation between the plate and motor is always brought up, one would assume that accumulation of that scale would already pose problems. The question is (and that's a genuine question), whether that is something that could be solved by continuous operation, track heating mechanisms, etc.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Then that, obviously, is not a property of surface vs. elevated tracks, but of the local surroundings of the guideway. An elevated track running high above a highway median through lowrise neighbourhoods (NY) would already have very different snow conditions than another elevated track running between skyscrapers (Detroit). Heck, even different wind directions or speed would affect differently how fast snow accumulates. It would, of course, be interesting to see if any such stats are available for which sections are more prone to problems, if there is any pattern to it.

As for the amount of snow/ice that will cause problems, that is part of my question. Given that the 1-cm separation between the plate and motor is always brought up, one would assume that accumulation of that scale would already pose problems. The question is (and that's a genuine question), whether that is something that could be solved by continuous operation, track heating mechanisms, etc.

Without knowing where on the SRT the problems are (if the problem is isolated to one or more stretches and not just every metre of track that snow can reach, that is), what happens in other cities isn't useful information.