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- Thread starter W. K. Lis
- Start date
turini2
Active Member
Remind me, where was the shared Sheppard/Eglinton East LRT carhouse supposed to be? Who owns the land? Please tell me they haven't let it be developed in the mean time - gotta get these sites safeguarded!
H4F33Z
Active Member
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Northern Light
Superstar
The issue of running in a corridor, is not the corridor itself per se; which may well be an efficient and cost-effective routing.
The problem is the corridors geographic relationship to the origins and destinations of riders.
If the corridor closely serves key pockets of employment, retail and dense residential; then its a perfectly logical choice.
But if it tends to run near low-density housing and low-employment density spots then who exactly is it serving?
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Northern Light
Superstar
We're OTP here, but lets take a quick look at the Etobocoke Hydro Corridor as a location for transit.
Here's the corridor at Bloor:
Here's the corridor at Burnamthorpe:
Now Rathburn:
Finally, Martin Grove:
All images from Streetview
Have to say, there's not a lot of 'there' there.
No significant pockets of density; and destinations in terms of education, healthcare, employment or shopping.
I think that's a tough sell as a transit priority route.
Here's the corridor at Bloor:
Here's the corridor at Burnamthorpe:
Now Rathburn:
Finally, Martin Grove:
All images from Streetview
Have to say, there's not a lot of 'there' there.
No significant pockets of density; and destinations in terms of education, healthcare, employment or shopping.
I think that's a tough sell as a transit priority route.
robmausser
Senior Member
I guess you are against the Mississauga Transitway too then? The same could be said for that line.
However, as a busway, you can have the buses leave the corridor and go to points of interest.
Express routes could go to Pearson.
Transit is not just about serving local communities with multi stop destinations, but creating longer distance express service to further destinations that bypass traffic.
Northern Light
Superstar
First off, I didn't say I was opposed; I said it didn't seem like a priority. I'll stand by that comment in light of the many other corridors that would seem to have greater existing, latent and potential demand.
Second; express routes in most cases don't work, they're very expensive to operate.
(Note I mean real express as in non-stop, as opposed to the TTC's common practice of limited stop)
You need churn in passengers to make the numbers work.
If you can charge a premium that may change matters, but UPX as a high-priced, express service failed, with lower fares and local stops, its a hit.
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I don't oppose the Mississauga Transit Way; though there are other places I would have put the money first. (within Mississauga)
Towered
Senior Member
Agree - The Etobicoke RT proposal of the 70's didn't make any sense, and still doesn't today. I would however advocate for a nice bike path to be built along this corridor.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
I've thought that the corridor might make sense as a quick and cheap BRT route between Kipling Station, Humber College (Finch) and the Airport. Travellling form the Northern part of Etobicoke to Line 2 is a massive pain in the butt, and this is a cheap investment that would help address this.
Northern Light
Superstar
That's plausibly true.
Though Humber has campuses at both ends (north (Finch) and south (Lake). Certainly some courses are more concentrated at one campus than the other; but many would be available at both.
For that reason, I do wonder what the travel demands are for that link; and what they'll be once there's:
a) A Finch West LRT linking to Line 1
b)Eglinton Crosstown/Line 5 coming all the way across
Perhaps there is sufficient demand and that would remain.
I'm uncertain, need to see some origin/demand surveys to know.
Rainforest
Senior Member
I don't have a strong opinion on either the Mississauga Transit Way or the Etobicoke hydro corridor route; I just don't have the relevant info.
But, would like to mention that the TTC express bus routes actually work well. At least, those that run in rush-hours only.
Not only do they reduce the travel times for some of the riders, but they enhance the route's capacity without reqiring additional buses. Say, a route is served by 10 vehicles doing all-stop service, and 8 vehicles doing "express" / limited stop service. If the demand is high and the 8 express vehjicles are sufficiently full, then they turn around faster, and are doing more work in a unit of time than if they ran all-stop. So, if you were to remove the expresses, you would need to add not 8, but 10 or 12 vehicles to the all-stop pool in order to attain the same total service frequency and the same capacity.
The UPX isn't failing merely because it is an express; it is failing because of the original design flows. They wanted to quickly create a subsidy-free high end service for the business travelers, and built the Airport spur and a station that only has the capacity for this group of clients. But it wasn't popular enough to cover the running costs. Now they would like to attract other groups of riders by reducing the ticket price, but at the reduced price, it can only be viable with a much greater ridership. That much-greater ridership cannot fit onto a short train, while a longer train won't fit into the short Airport station. So, they got themselves into a twist.
Rainforest
Senior Member
Good point; if there is no demand for LRT in that corridor due to the lack of mid-point densities, then maybe a BRT will be popular enough to justify itself.
robmausser
Senior Member
Another advantage of a BRT, is that its already been done in the city, with the Finch Hydro Corridor busway. Precedence is a huge motivator in politics.
And another advantage of busways is that you can have other services operate on it.
Heres a VIVA bus operating on the TTC Finch Hydro corridor busway.
Heres a GO bus operating in the Missisauga Transitway, which also runs for some of its length through a hydro corridor
Kipling GO is a big GO Bus hub too, so an Etobicoke Hydro Corridor busway could also run GO busses coming from various places and avoid the 427 traffic.
And another advantage of busways is that you can have other services operate on it.
Heres a VIVA bus operating on the TTC Finch Hydro corridor busway.
Heres a GO bus operating in the Missisauga Transitway, which also runs for some of its length through a hydro corridor
Kipling GO is a big GO Bus hub too, so an Etobicoke Hydro Corridor busway could also run GO busses coming from various places and avoid the 427 traffic.
Attachments
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
The busway in the Etobicoke hydro corridor is such a no brainer. In terms of raw travel time savings, between Kipling Station (Bloor) and Eglinton Avenue, we're looking at travel times of just 5 mins, if we assume average speeds of 60 km/h on the corridor. Compare that to the existing Kipling bus, which is scheduled to cover that same distance in 13 to 17 minutes.
Some other important connections, other than Pearson and northern Etobicoke (including Humber College):
Mississauga Transitway and Hurontario LRT
Terminating at Eglinton, the Etobicoke busway would connect directly to the Mississauga Transitway. Trips between Kipling and Square One (connecting with Hurontario LRT) would be 25 mins, down from about 35 to 40 mins today.
If I were Mississauga, I'd really be pushing for this connection. This connection arguably benefits Mississauga more than Toronto, as it brings Downtown Mississauga and the Hurontario LRT closer than ever to the Toronto subway system. The Etobickoe busway can be seen as a natural expansion of the Mississauga Transitway.1
Pearson Airport Employment Lands
The Pearson Airport Employment Lands are located southeast of the airport. The spread out nature of the employment lands make it difficult to access by transit, and the proposed Eglinton West LRT would do little (arguably nothing) to improve accessibility. It currently takes about 30 mins to travel from Eglinton and Dixie to Kipling Station during rush hour. The busway could bring this down to about 20 mins.
Some other important connections, other than Pearson and northern Etobicoke (including Humber College):
Mississauga Transitway and Hurontario LRT
Terminating at Eglinton, the Etobicoke busway would connect directly to the Mississauga Transitway. Trips between Kipling and Square One (connecting with Hurontario LRT) would be 25 mins, down from about 35 to 40 mins today.
If I were Mississauga, I'd really be pushing for this connection. This connection arguably benefits Mississauga more than Toronto, as it brings Downtown Mississauga and the Hurontario LRT closer than ever to the Toronto subway system. The Etobickoe busway can be seen as a natural expansion of the Mississauga Transitway.1
Pearson Airport Employment Lands
The Pearson Airport Employment Lands are located southeast of the airport. The spread out nature of the employment lands make it difficult to access by transit, and the proposed Eglinton West LRT would do little (arguably nothing) to improve accessibility. It currently takes about 30 mins to travel from Eglinton and Dixie to Kipling Station during rush hour. The busway could bring this down to about 20 mins.
Coolstar
Senior Member
Think we could move this discussion to another thread? Pretty much gotten off-topic.