[turini2]

So reading Steve Munro's latest blog on the Eglinton East LRT,

The subway design now includes a tail track east of Kennedy Station that had been deleted in an earlier version of the plan. This makes the structure wider further east and shifts the transition from cut-and-cover box tunnel to the deep bore. This takes space that was formerly planned for the LRT portal into an underground connection at Kennedy Station.

The LRT plan now drops below grade east of Midland with an underground station there, and this adds roughly $350 million (2020$) to the project cost.

How essential is a Midland station, and is it worth $350m? I did send a consultation response to the Scarborough Subway team that they should build both the turn back and the Eglinton East tunnel structures at the same time, so the street doesn't have to be dug up twice...

 

[KevinT]

Have to say, there's not a lot of 'there' there.

No significant pockets of density; and destinations in terms of education, healthcare, employment or shopping.

I think that's a tough sell as a transit priority route.

Looks like it might make a great rolling bus terminal though. ION in Waterloo Region cut down on a lot of meandering to and from the old terminal, but I'm not familiar enough with this area to know if there would be similar benefits.

 

[H4F33Z]

So reading Steve Munro's latest blog on the Eglinton East LRT,


How essential is a Midland station, and is it worth $350m? I did send a consultation response to the Scarborough Subway team that they should build both the turn back and the Eglinton East tunnel structures at the same time, so the street doesn't have to be dug up twice...

Totally agree, Midland is only less than five minutes away from Kennedy. And streetscaping improvements could improve the walk from Midland to Kennedy Station. If the stop was above ground, it'd be fine, but an underground station to me sounds a bit much. Especially, it doesn't look like it'd be busy. But with all the complications that the Line 2 extension has created. It probably will stay, as Midland is considered a minor arterial, and a connection to buses.

 

[Rainforest]

Totally agree, Midland is only less than five minutes away from Kennedy. And streetscaping improvements could improve the walk from Midland to Kennedy Station. If the stop was above ground, it'd be fine, but an underground station to me sounds a bit much. Especially, it doesn't look like it'd be busy. But with all the complications that the Line 2 extension has created. It probably will stay, as Midland is considered a minor arterial, and a connection to buses.

Midland doesn't have a through service crossing Eglinton. The 57 operates north of Eglinton, the 20 south of Eglinton, and both of them go to the Kennedy bus terminal.

The bus connection will not be lost if the Midland LRT station is skipped, nor will the residents be left without local transit service.

 

[Deadpool X]

Totally agree, Midland is only less than five minutes away from Kennedy. And streetscaping improvements could improve the walk from Midland to Kennedy Station. If the stop was above ground, it'd be fine, but an underground station to me sounds a bit much. Especially, it doesn't look like it'd be busy. But with all the complications that the Line 2 extension has created. It probably will stay, as Midland is considered a minor arterial, and a connection to buses.

Midland is a lot longer than 5 min from Kennedy station because you have to walk the entire length of the bridge and then back track back to Kennedy station. I think a pedestrian tunnel will be a better solution so that the station can be skipped and people get a quicker access to Kennedy station.

 

[H4F33Z]

Midland is a lot longer than 5 min from Kennedy station because you have to walk the entire length of the bridge and then back track back to Kennedy station. I think a pedestrian tunnel will be a better solution so that the station can be skipped and people get a quicker access to Kennedy station.

The assumption, is that you would walk west and head to the south service underpass, and use the new Kennedy GO entrance on the east side near Don Montgomery, to access the station.

 

[smallspy]

The assumption, is that you would walk west and head to the south service underpass, and use the new Kennedy GO entrance on the east side near Don Montgomery, to access the station.

And that tunnel has been in place since the opening of Kennedy Station in 1980, so why would one walk all the way across the bridge if one didn't need to?

While I think that a station could be foregone at Midland if the bus routes were to maintain their current routing, what if that wasn't to be the case?

Dan

 

[Rainforest]

While I think that a station could be foregone at Midland if the bus routes were to maintain their current routing, what if that wasn't to be the case?

The absense of LRT station at Midland will create a strong incentive to retain the split bus operation on Midland, with both the northern route and the southern route running to the Kennedy bus terminal and connecting to the subway and the LRTs there.

 

[smallspy]

The absense of LRT station at Midland will create a strong incentive to retain the split bus operation on Midland, with both the northern route and the southern route running to the Kennedy bus terminal and connecting to the subway and the LRTs there.

This is exactly the point.

Which I guess now begs the question - where are the riders on the 20 and 57 heading to and from? Are the ridership levels similar north and south of Eglinton?

Dan

 

[robmausser]

The busway in the Etobicoke hydro corridor is such a no brainer. In terms of raw travel time savings, between Kipling Station (Bloor) and Eglinton Avenue, we're looking at travel times of just 5 mins, if we assume average speeds of 60 km/h on the corridor. Compare that to the existing Kipling bus, which is scheduled to cover that same distance in 13 to 17 minutes.

Some other important connections, other than Pearson and northern Etobicoke (including Humber College):

Mississauga Transitway and Hurontario LRT
Terminating at Eglinton, the Etobicoke busway would connect directly to the Mississauga Transitway. Trips between Kipling and Square One (connecting with Hurontario LRT) would be 25 mins, down from about 35 to 40 mins today.

If I were Mississauga, I'd really be pushing for this connection. This connection arguably benefits Mississauga more than Toronto, as it brings Downtown Mississauga and the Hurontario LRT closer than ever to the Toronto subway system. The Etobickoe busway can be seen as a natural expansion of the Mississauga Transitway.1

Pearson Airport Employment Lands
The Pearson Airport Employment Lands are located southeast of the airport. The spread out nature of the employment lands make it difficult to access by transit, and the proposed Eglinton West LRT would do little (arguably nothing) to improve accessibility. It currently takes about 30 mins to travel from Eglinton and Dixie to Kipling Station during rush hour. The busway could bring this down to about 20 mins.

The 192 Rocket could also use the Etobicoke busway. Currently it uses the 427 and if there is rush hour traffic, it can effect peoples ability to get to their flight on time. If you can guarantee a reliable service time, people are much more likely to take transit to the airport, as getting there on time is essential.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

What we'll really happen is a transfer at Kennedy station. SMH.

And then we can fight about it for another 20 years, and then bury it in 2050. Christ.

 

[Rainforest]

This is exactly the point.

Which I guess now begs the question - where are the riders on the 20 and 57 heading to and from? Are the ridership levels similar north and south of Eglinton?

Dan

I don't have the stats. Generally, it isn't uncommon for a bus route running parallel to a subway line, to be split in half for a better connection to the subway and forfeit a through service (https://www.ttc.ca/PDF/Maps/TTC_SystemMap.pdf).

The Midland, Brimley, and Kennedy routes are all split at Eglinton and connect to Kennedy Stn. The Avenue Rd service split into #5 and #61 to connect to Eglinton & Yonge. Both the 63 and the 109 connect to Eglinton West, rather than running through (Oakwood + Marlee).

Assuming all those splits exist for a good reason, there should be nothing wrong with continuing the present arrangement at Midland and Eglinton, and saving on the underground station cost.

 

[smallspy]

I don't have the stats. Generally, it isn't uncommon for a bus route running parallel to a subway line, to be split in half for a better connection to the subway and forfeit a through service (https://www.ttc.ca/PDF/Maps/TTC_SystemMap.pdf).

The Midland, Brimley, and Kennedy routes are all split at Eglinton and connect to Kennedy Stn. The Avenue Rd service split into #5 and #61 to connect to Eglinton & Yonge. Both the 63 and the 109 connect to Eglinton West, rather than running through (Oakwood + Marlee).

Assuming all those splits exist for a good reason, there should be nothing wrong with continuing the present arrangement at Midland and Eglinton, and saving on the underground station cost.

You're right, that depends on what the ridership patterns are. For many routes, the ridership is different north-of and south-of the subway, and the people are destined for different places - and thus they can get away with splitting the routes.

Then there are routes like Ossington, where a healthy proportion of the ridership rides from north to south of Bloor. As well, ridership is approximately equal on both halves. That's why that particular route runs through the station. Same goes for Bathurst at St Clair West - the early planning for the Spadina subway extension had the Bathurst Bus ending service at St. Clair West from the north, and a different service continuing south. They then dug into the ridership patterns, and discovered that a lot of people from north of St. Clair were heading to destinations that were not well suited to a subway transfer at St. Clair West. In spite of this, the TTC still tried to force the issue and run a lot of service to St. Clair West - and over time that service was cut back as it was realized that no matter what, people weren't going to make the change there.

Avenue Road as well will be through-routed once the Crosstown opens. Not necessarily because ridership is equal between the two halves (its not), but moreso because the ridership patterns are such that a healty proportion of the ridership does travel from north to south along the corridor. Another helpful factor is that doing so will allow the TTC to save a bus or two in operations. Leaside and Leslie will be joined in a similar manner, but there the reasoning there is entirely to save on operating costs, and not due to any potential ridership gains.

But Midland? I just have no data on it, and its not something I've ever asked my contacts at service planning.

Dan

 

[turini2]

The other thing about a potential Midland station - where is the potential ridership coming from to justify an underground stop? The urban built form around the site is medium/low density with some potential for redevelopment. Would you spent the time and hassle of going underground to ride a train for just one stop to change onto the subway (or even to GO!)? Or would you just walk/cycle it - just a 500m ish walk to Kennedy station... The next stop would be at Falmouth, about 400m from the Midland intersection.

With regard to the Midland buses, if I was a rider - I think I'd prefer to stay on the bus to Kennedy - even if I was planning to go along Eglinton. Many more interchange options, and it's not much further to travel.

If they consult on it, I'm def pushing to drop that station to save $350m.
I also submitted a comment to the Scarborough subway team asking them about the possibility of building the Eglinton East tunnel portal at the same time as the cut-and-cover Subway turn back & tunnel launch shaft...

 

[innsertnamehere]

The other thing about a potential Midland station - where is the potential ridership coming from to justify an underground stop? The urban built form around the site is medium/low density with some potential for redevelopment. Would you spent the time and hassle of going underground to ride a train for just one stop to change onto the subway (or even to GO!)? Or would you just walk/cycle it - just a 500m ish walk to Kennedy station... The next stop would be at Falmouth, about 400m from the Midland intersection.

With regard to the Midland buses, if I was a rider - I think I'd prefer to stay on the bus to Kennedy - even if I was planning to go along Eglinton. Many more interchange options, and it's not much further to travel.

If they consult on it, I'm def pushing to drop that station to save $350m.
I also submitted a comment to the Scarborough subway team asking them about the possibility of building the Eglinton East tunnel portal at the same time as the cut-and-cover Subway turn back & tunnel launch shaft...

I think the idea is that most using that station would not be going to Kennedy just to transfer - they would be going towards UTSC or onwards onto the Crosstown. I'd say I agree about eliminating it though, especially since the Midland bus is most likely going to still go to Kennedy anyway.

It's sort of like the Queens Quay TTC streetcar stop. An underground stop so close to Union you may as well walk if that's where you are going, but most there aren't going that way.