R
roch5220
Guest
Well, I didn't want to mention this, but Barrick is a flight risk. But if they leave, they will be leaving Canada entirely, and heading towards western US.
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Well, I didn't want to mention this, but Barrick is a flight risk. But if they leave, they will be leaving Canada entirely, and heading towards western US.
T
tudararms
Guest
Roch: "I hope though that Calgary does maintain is momentum and becomes a player in Canada. We need more decentralization of economic power, the way that Chicago, LA, SF is to NYC."
I agree with you Roch! The better able we are to compete with the U.S. the better the country as a whole is.
Unimaginative: "That's not to say that Toronto isn't a major business centre, by far the largest in the country, but it is certainly stunning how few international headquarters it has for a city its size."
True. Toronto's tall buildings are mainly banking institutions, and with no new banking towers going up the skyline of the downtown core has changed very little over the past 20 to 25 years, if you factor out condos.
SD: "A lot of the offices that have moved deal with support-related issues that are suited to the sprawling office complexes the suburbs can provide."
This is no different than in other cities - Toronto has to become more aggressive in courting big business, and in keeping it.
SD:"Toronto is already competing and doing quite well. There is room for improvement but it's not as dire as you make it seem."
Nor as rosey as you'd make it, i'd warrant.
I agree with you Roch! The better able we are to compete with the U.S. the better the country as a whole is.
Unimaginative: "That's not to say that Toronto isn't a major business centre, by far the largest in the country, but it is certainly stunning how few international headquarters it has for a city its size."
True. Toronto's tall buildings are mainly banking institutions, and with no new banking towers going up the skyline of the downtown core has changed very little over the past 20 to 25 years, if you factor out condos.
SD: "A lot of the offices that have moved deal with support-related issues that are suited to the sprawling office complexes the suburbs can provide."
This is no different than in other cities - Toronto has to become more aggressive in courting big business, and in keeping it.
SD:"Toronto is already competing and doing quite well. There is room for improvement but it's not as dire as you make it seem."
Nor as rosey as you'd make it, i'd warrant.
S
SD2
Guest
This is no different than in other cities - Toronto has to become more aggressive in courting big business, and in keeping it.
Of course. There's always room for improvement.
However, much of the big business hasn't actually left - they've just relocated some operations to more cost effective areas.
I'd like to see Toronto attract as much business as possible - it's just not realistic to expect every single business to settle here. Mississauga, etc. are going to get their share.
Nor as rosey as you'd make it, i'd warrant.
Rosey? You mean realistic?
U
unimaginative2
Guest
Well, I didn't want to mention this, but Barrick is a flight risk. But if they leave, they will be leaving Canada entirely, and heading towards western US.
I'd be very suprised if that's the case with Peter Munk still around, given his recent (admirable) rah-rah nationalism during the Inco/Falconbridge-capades.
B
Brighter Hell
Guest
Not that I disagree, but what people are forgetting is that the US has 9 times Canada's population. You'd expect it to have 9 times the major cities. It doesn't.We need more decentralization of economic power, the way that Chicago, LA, SF is to NYC.
In the context of comparing Toronto to Calgary, Mississauga is Toronto.I'd like to see Toronto attract as much business as possible - it's just not realistic to expect every single business to settle here. Mississauga, etc. are going to get their share.
S
scarberiankhatru
Guest
"the skyline of the downtown core has changed very little over the past 20 to 25 years, if you factor out condos."
...and Scotia Plaza, and BCE Place, and Simcoe Place, and Metro Hall, and the Eaton Centre towers, and the SkyDome, and...
...and Scotia Plaza, and BCE Place, and Simcoe Place, and Metro Hall, and the Eaton Centre towers, and the SkyDome, and...
S
SD2
Guest
In the context of comparing Toronto to Calgary, Mississauga is Toronto.
I know...I was just addressing the 416-905 angle. You're absolutely right though.
T
tudararms
Guest
SD: "I'd like to see Toronto attract as much business as possible - it's just not realistic to expect every single business to settle here."
I'd say darn near impossible, but representing the issue as such an absolute is hardly 'realism': having a healthy surplus of new corporate headquarters settling in Toronto over those migrating outwards should be a reasonable or 'realistic' objective, and this is not a matter of being 'dire' or 'rosey'.
Scarberian: "...and Scotia Plaza, and BCE Place, and Simcoe Place, and Metro Hall, and the Eaton Centre towers, and the SkyDome, and..."
Okay, 15 to 20 years then??? (though the Cadillac Fairview Tower was built in 1981!) By the time the new office towers proposed are up the picture *will* be closer to 20 to 25 years, especially if you consider that those buildings cited above did not pop up on the skyline overnight. More interesting to the issue at hand however, it is notable that most of the buildings you do cite represent financial institutions or publicly funded projects, which brings us back to Unimaginative's comment on this issue in the first place.
SD: "Toronto is already competing and doing quite well."
Based on what? For a point of comparison, in Chicago there have been 7 new office towers built since the year 2000 that are all over 35 floors, with an 8th tower under construction and 5 more proposed. In Calgary there have been 2 new office towers built since the year 2000 that are over 35 floors with more on the way.
I'd say darn near impossible, but representing the issue as such an absolute is hardly 'realism': having a healthy surplus of new corporate headquarters settling in Toronto over those migrating outwards should be a reasonable or 'realistic' objective, and this is not a matter of being 'dire' or 'rosey'.
Scarberian: "...and Scotia Plaza, and BCE Place, and Simcoe Place, and Metro Hall, and the Eaton Centre towers, and the SkyDome, and..."
Okay, 15 to 20 years then??? (though the Cadillac Fairview Tower was built in 1981!) By the time the new office towers proposed are up the picture *will* be closer to 20 to 25 years, especially if you consider that those buildings cited above did not pop up on the skyline overnight. More interesting to the issue at hand however, it is notable that most of the buildings you do cite represent financial institutions or publicly funded projects, which brings us back to Unimaginative's comment on this issue in the first place.
SD: "Toronto is already competing and doing quite well."
Based on what? For a point of comparison, in Chicago there have been 7 new office towers built since the year 2000 that are all over 35 floors, with an 8th tower under construction and 5 more proposed. In Calgary there have been 2 new office towers built since the year 2000 that are over 35 floors with more on the way.
B
billy corgan19982
Guest
^
Looks like we have our new miketoronto. At least his spelling is better.
Looks like we have our new miketoronto. At least his spelling is better.
S
simply Dan
Guest
Great.
T
TdotTrickyRicky
Guest
I don't find anything tudararms is saying to be extremist/arlarmist in a miketoronto way. Toronto has, in terms of corporate power been slipping notably over the last 20 years both nationally and internationally. While this may just be a correction towards a more healthy and reasonable level of corporate concentration on the basis of our population the fact is that it is our loss.
R
roch5220
Guest
Toronto really built too much office space back in the 80s, not so much of an issue as houston, but plain and simple, its part reason of the reason its taken so long for new offices. I think the recent announcement/commencement of new office towers downtown is an indicment against most who argued that Toronto was passe in that respect during the 90s. Lets not forget that many commentators back then questioned whether or not any more office towers would get built downtown, in relation to both demand for the GTA (competitiveness) and the 'attractiveness' of the suburbs. Locating in Toronto has many benefits like access to services/expertise that arn't availably elsewhere, reputation, as well as having a large, skilled workforce + proximate to regional eastern cities like NYC. Fortunately, its not always about the cost per sq foot/taxes.
Even though head office counts maybe indicative, they are not the end all or say all. BMO's head office is in Montreal, yet they employ a great amount of people in non-branch jobs accross the GTA and other cities, like ways RBC in Toronto employing others.
Even though head office counts maybe indicative, they are not the end all or say all. BMO's head office is in Montreal, yet they employ a great amount of people in non-branch jobs accross the GTA and other cities, like ways RBC in Toronto employing others.
S
SD2
Guest
I'd say darn near impossible, but representing the issue as such an absolute is hardly 'realism': having a healthy surplus of new corporate headquarters settling in Toronto over those migrating outwards should be a reasonable or 'realistic' objective, and this is not a matter of being 'dire' or 'rosey'.
But that seems to be your standard. There is an influx of companies and employment in the core has been increasing.
I agree more would be nice, but it will come. There is growth in other areas too.
Based on what? For a point of comparison, in Chicago there have been 7 new office towers built since the year 2000 that are all over 35 floors, with an 8th tower under construction and 5 more proposed. In Calgary there have been 2 new office towers built since the year 2000 that are over 35 floors with more on the way.
Toronto has been one of the fastest growing cities in NA for decades. As Roch mentioned, there was a surplus of office space built in the 80s. Combined with the conversion of older spaces to office uses, there hasn't been a need for any new office towers. Right now there are 3 new ones underway, along with the smaller ones over the past few years (Maritime Life, Canada Life on Queen, etc.).
There has also been growth in other areas - the MARS District is a signifcant project, even if it isn't an office tower. We've had the most robust condo market in NA for quite a while too. The city could certainly be doing better - espeically in attracting more big business - but most cities could. Considering the continued growth here, I think it's a little silly to suggest that Toronto "could" compete when it already is competing.
B
Bogtrotter
Guest
A few details on the new building- courtesy of Emporis:
- Tallest building in Canada west of Toronto (810ft)
- Building named after the river that runs beside Calgary's downtown.
- As of 2006, the largest North American development ever for Foster, the design architect.
- Canada's first trussed-tube skyscraper similar to John Hancock Center and One Maritime Plaza.
- Of the 59 floors, there are 53 office floors including 3 with sky gardens, 2 retail, and 4 mechanical levels.
- The shape and position of the tower allows for views, maximum sunshine, and also deals effectively with summer and winter wind patterns.
- The advanced design uses glass and steel engineering that makes the building 30% lighter than any its size.
- The EnCana headquarters provides space for 3,200 employees, once housed in five buildings.
- A typical floor is approximately 32,000 square feet.
- Retail and cultural space is 200,000 square feet.
- The steel-framed structure is crescent-shaped.
- Canada's second largest building in floor space after First Canadian Place in downtown Toronto.
- The building site area is 190,000 square feet and covers most of one full city block in the two block complex, which also includes a 7-story building and an extensive park-like plaza.
- Three floors, approximately 17 floors apart, will feature sky gardens - indoor park-like levels with trees and vegetation - with seating and meeting spaces serviced by express elevators.
- Total cost for the project, on announcement day, was estimated to be between $850 million and $1 billion.
- Tallest building in Canada west of Toronto (810ft)
- Building named after the river that runs beside Calgary's downtown.
- As of 2006, the largest North American development ever for Foster, the design architect.
- Canada's first trussed-tube skyscraper similar to John Hancock Center and One Maritime Plaza.
- Of the 59 floors, there are 53 office floors including 3 with sky gardens, 2 retail, and 4 mechanical levels.
- The shape and position of the tower allows for views, maximum sunshine, and also deals effectively with summer and winter wind patterns.
- The advanced design uses glass and steel engineering that makes the building 30% lighter than any its size.
- The EnCana headquarters provides space for 3,200 employees, once housed in five buildings.
- A typical floor is approximately 32,000 square feet.
- Retail and cultural space is 200,000 square feet.
- The steel-framed structure is crescent-shaped.
- Canada's second largest building in floor space after First Canadian Place in downtown Toronto.
- The building site area is 190,000 square feet and covers most of one full city block in the two block complex, which also includes a 7-story building and an extensive park-like plaza.
- Three floors, approximately 17 floors apart, will feature sky gardens - indoor park-like levels with trees and vegetation - with seating and meeting spaces serviced by express elevators.
- Total cost for the project, on announcement day, was estimated to be between $850 million and $1 billion.
A
Archivistower
Guest
For those of you wanting a little perspective on Calgary's architecture and where this building fits in, see below. A good article, in my opinion, that places this development in context without being overly critical of Cal-town. Perhaps the comparison with Berlin is a bit unfair since the main reason Berlin is what it is today is the need of the Germans to develop their capital and in so doing exorcise part of their past (and also, of course Dan, simply because it's Germany!).
EnCana tower's value isn't in its height
DEBORAH YEDLIN
CALGARY — Plans for the new EnCana building -- the largest office tower west of Toronto -- were unveiled with great fanfare in Calgary last week.
Mayor Dave Bronconnier, whose professional roots lie in real estate development, predictably heralded the news as yet another sign of the country's economic clout heading westward.
But touting an office tower as a symbol of the rise of anything is old news. Mr. Bronconnier and others seem to have missed the fact that iconic skyscrapers no longer carry the same status in the Western world that they did before 9/11. Take a look around the globe and it's tough to find a monolithic office tower going up in the industrialized world; it's in the developing world where the endless columns of glass and steel still carry the statement of economic arrival.
While big office buildings send a powerful message of critical mass and economic strength, for cities to be truly great, having a cluster of office towers that signal economic might is only one piece of a much, much bigger puzzle. If Calgary is indeed taking on a bigger role as an economic centre in the country, it's going to take more than the announcement of a 59-storey office building to herald its arrival.
There needs to be some imagination associated with it. Even Edmonton, the frigid capital city three hours north, is forging ahead with a new art gallery whose design is on par with what's happening in bigger urban centres on the continent.
Earlier this year, as part of the Alberta College of Art and Design's Stirring Culture lecture series, Charles Landry criticized Calgary's architecture for being closed and uninviting -- too much reflective glass and steel and not enough open and inviting spaces that pull pedestrians off the street.
Mr. Landry, who runs a cultural planning consulting practice in Europe called Comedia, said the city's downtown towers effectively ignore the stated planning principles of people first, sustainability and green spaces.
Martin Cohos, the retired founder of the architectural firm Cohos Evamy, takes Mr. Landry's comments one step further.
Calling the EnCana building "a marquee piece of sculpture in the sky," Mr. Cohos says the key is whether the curved building (whose architecture from one vantage is all too reminiscent of Toronto's 41-year-old city hall) succeeds in changing the space around it.
"How does this building approach the ground and accept citizens? How do they relate to it? Does it have a 9-to-5 life, or are there things that go on after office hours to keep people around?" Mr. Cohos asks.
He's got a point.
People are drawn to cities possessing an urban vibrancy created by integrating livable and living spaces within the business context.
Take Berlin as an example. Because it's been largely rebuilt in the postwar era, it's young, just like Calgary. But take a walk in Berlin, and it's a visual feast both in terms of the buildings and the life on the sidewalks. Transportation -- whether on foot, subway, streetcar or taxi -- is integrated and the public spaces flow around the urban structures, giving rise to activity beyond the office clock.
Mr. Cohos calls it a "touchable" city.
Calgary is a long way from earning that description.
A big part of the reason is the 16-km-long Plus-15 maze that connects buildings throughout the downtown core 15 feet above ground.
These glass corridors (which are now mandated by the city within certain limits of the downtown area) are a blessing during cold winter days but have had the effect of stripping the street life by bringing it up to the second floor.
It's warm, but lifeless.
Even now, as 4.5 million square feet of new space is under construction, there isn't much to inspire or take in; just more of the same steel and reflective glass.
The good news is that the EnCana complex has the potential to act as a catalyst in terms of taking Calgary's urban evolution in a new direction so that it starts to become something beyond a cluster of towers. In addition to the big tower, two adjacent buildings are included in the development for use as space for arts and culture organizations.
This notion of "cultural adjacency" has been championed by the CEO of Calgary's Glenbow Museum, Michael Robinson, for quite some time.
Mr. Robinson says that if it's done right, the combination of a cultural component with a high-end retail in an office complex not only increases the number of hours the space is used but enhances the overall value of the asset.
Mr. Robinson also notes that Calgary is very good at attracting people from across the country because of the economic climate, but it's equally critical that the city is interesting enough for them to stay after retiring. And enhancing the cultural and urban life is a critical part of achieving this goal.
EnCana tower's value isn't in its height
DEBORAH YEDLIN
CALGARY — Plans for the new EnCana building -- the largest office tower west of Toronto -- were unveiled with great fanfare in Calgary last week.
Mayor Dave Bronconnier, whose professional roots lie in real estate development, predictably heralded the news as yet another sign of the country's economic clout heading westward.
But touting an office tower as a symbol of the rise of anything is old news. Mr. Bronconnier and others seem to have missed the fact that iconic skyscrapers no longer carry the same status in the Western world that they did before 9/11. Take a look around the globe and it's tough to find a monolithic office tower going up in the industrialized world; it's in the developing world where the endless columns of glass and steel still carry the statement of economic arrival.
While big office buildings send a powerful message of critical mass and economic strength, for cities to be truly great, having a cluster of office towers that signal economic might is only one piece of a much, much bigger puzzle. If Calgary is indeed taking on a bigger role as an economic centre in the country, it's going to take more than the announcement of a 59-storey office building to herald its arrival.
There needs to be some imagination associated with it. Even Edmonton, the frigid capital city three hours north, is forging ahead with a new art gallery whose design is on par with what's happening in bigger urban centres on the continent.
Earlier this year, as part of the Alberta College of Art and Design's Stirring Culture lecture series, Charles Landry criticized Calgary's architecture for being closed and uninviting -- too much reflective glass and steel and not enough open and inviting spaces that pull pedestrians off the street.
Mr. Landry, who runs a cultural planning consulting practice in Europe called Comedia, said the city's downtown towers effectively ignore the stated planning principles of people first, sustainability and green spaces.
Martin Cohos, the retired founder of the architectural firm Cohos Evamy, takes Mr. Landry's comments one step further.
Calling the EnCana building "a marquee piece of sculpture in the sky," Mr. Cohos says the key is whether the curved building (whose architecture from one vantage is all too reminiscent of Toronto's 41-year-old city hall) succeeds in changing the space around it.
"How does this building approach the ground and accept citizens? How do they relate to it? Does it have a 9-to-5 life, or are there things that go on after office hours to keep people around?" Mr. Cohos asks.
He's got a point.
People are drawn to cities possessing an urban vibrancy created by integrating livable and living spaces within the business context.
Take Berlin as an example. Because it's been largely rebuilt in the postwar era, it's young, just like Calgary. But take a walk in Berlin, and it's a visual feast both in terms of the buildings and the life on the sidewalks. Transportation -- whether on foot, subway, streetcar or taxi -- is integrated and the public spaces flow around the urban structures, giving rise to activity beyond the office clock.
Mr. Cohos calls it a "touchable" city.
Calgary is a long way from earning that description.
A big part of the reason is the 16-km-long Plus-15 maze that connects buildings throughout the downtown core 15 feet above ground.
These glass corridors (which are now mandated by the city within certain limits of the downtown area) are a blessing during cold winter days but have had the effect of stripping the street life by bringing it up to the second floor.
It's warm, but lifeless.
Even now, as 4.5 million square feet of new space is under construction, there isn't much to inspire or take in; just more of the same steel and reflective glass.
The good news is that the EnCana complex has the potential to act as a catalyst in terms of taking Calgary's urban evolution in a new direction so that it starts to become something beyond a cluster of towers. In addition to the big tower, two adjacent buildings are included in the development for use as space for arts and culture organizations.
This notion of "cultural adjacency" has been championed by the CEO of Calgary's Glenbow Museum, Michael Robinson, for quite some time.
Mr. Robinson says that if it's done right, the combination of a cultural component with a high-end retail in an office complex not only increases the number of hours the space is used but enhances the overall value of the asset.
Mr. Robinson also notes that Calgary is very good at attracting people from across the country because of the economic climate, but it's equally critical that the city is interesting enough for them to stay after retiring. And enhancing the cultural and urban life is a critical part of achieving this goal.