[wyliepoon]

I think the big reason why people in Toronto are worrying about whether Toronto or Calgary will be the "corporate city" in Canada is because that title has been moved before, from Montreal to Toronto. The title is also much less cemented into Toronto than in most other countries in the world, for example New York was always the corporate city of the US, with Chicago and LA never having much of a chance to strip the title from New York. I think the combination of that history and the insecurity that Toronto has about itself is driving this whole fear about Encana.

Being "scared" of Encana isn't a bad thing. I think this fear could be translated into something good, such as a resolve improve Toronto's image in the corporate world, and to do more to make Toronto's big companies stay and to regularly churn out big towers for us skyscraper fans to enjoy.

 

[adma]

And sheesh, so what if Calgary's getting some curvy new Foster thing? Good for them. (Is there *any* way we can view other cities' starchitect turns without feeling a "what have they got that we haven't got" resentment? Or conversely, to attack the design on nitpicky "lower-tier Foster" grounds? It's almost like we wish to "punish" Calgary for stealing Toronto's thunder, miketoronto-style...)

 

[mark simpson]

if its automatically envy to critique a design or inquire about its financial reality in a building & architecture sub-forum then so be it

personally, I find the path this thread has taken adds substance to those in the international forums claiming we Torontonians as a whole suffer from confidence issues

 

[adma]

Yes, but they're all dorks without girlfriends. So there;-)

 

[tudararms]

Alberta is booming, and Calgary is one of the fastest growing cities in North America, never mind Canada! This will definately effect Toronto, both good and bad. Stronger, Canadian, east/west links can only be a good thing as they help make Toronto and the country as a whole less dependent on the U.S., and there is definately room in Canada for a prosperous prairie city. That said, it is obvious that Toronto will lose corporate market share to a growing west, it has already been losing this to Vancouver (Toronto has also already been losing this to its own suburbs!) Alberta will also become more of a draw for Canadians and new immigrants seeking jobs, lower taxes and entrepreneurial opportunities as the energy boom spins off into other secters - I recently heard a statistic (sorry, can't remember where but I think it was the CBC) that says that some 30,000 Ontarians migrated to Calgary in the past year alone! Already there is a huge demand there for construction, the trades and other service industries. A cultural explosion can't be too far behind either, especially when you see tiny towns like Medecine Hat building shiny new arts facilities that would be the envy of far larger eastern cities...

So the question remains, can Toronto hold onto its position as economic engine of the country? The defeatist response is "not likely", if it continues on the way it has. Toronto has been hit hard over the past few years, as has been discussed ad nauseum here and elsewhere, and other North American markets that had already seen their power bases dwindle have been reinventing and responding competitively for a number of years now already. This means that regardless of the fortunes of Calgary, Toronto will have to be aggressive to continue to attract business, tourism and the media. This means making investments now in public transit, the public realm, and in our city's assets such as the Waterfront. It means dusting ourselves off, rebranding our image, and selling ourselves to the world. It requires the type of energy, enthusiasm and civic pride that cities like Calgary have, and that Toronto itself once had in the 60s and 70s when it was the city that built NPS, First Canadian Place, the TD Centre, the CN Tower; and when it understood implicitly that it was the city of the future. It also requires vision, cooperation and commitment at City Hall and Queen's Park, and strong effective leadership that can take command of a morass of conflicting minority and interest groups, for the good of the city as a whole. Most of all, Toronto needs to understand, now more than ever, that its position of power is no longer a given, and that what may have worked in the past may not work in the future.

 

[roch5220]

That said, it is obvious that Toronto will lose corporate market share to a growing west, it has already been losing this to Vancouver (Toronto has also already been losing this to its own suburbs!)

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here.
Currently, 416 has lost a lot of head offices to the 905, but the region has only lost a couple total, while Calgary has only gained net 1 since the 80s (we keep on rehashing the same Post article from last year tracking the movements of the 400 or so largest CDN head offices). Its more the media giving people the ideas that Toronto is losing out to Calgary.

Saying that, I agree that having a 2nd large financial centre in Canada is benefical both to Canada and Toronto (both cities could leverage off each other, so long as busniess attitudes with albertans towards dealing with Toronto, their regionalistic issues are put aside). This Ecana building I hope will show the continuation of Calgary's success. I hope they plan now (city infrastructure) for the future to curb the sprawling issues of the GTA.

 

[roch5220]

I agree, Calgary is not the major international city that Toronto is, Calgary is very important to the energy sector, whereas Toronto is the financial heart of the country. Calgary getting a major development like this may mean the Canada is no longer a one trick pony

Both Calgary (having the oil) and Toronto are both important ot the energy sector. Lest we not forget that the TSX is the worlds premier energy/resource exchange.

Regardless, Canada is not a one trick pony. We are diverse in both the services industry (thanks to a highly educated population) and natural resources (which we will continue to cash in on, albiet, being water, lumber, metals, oil, etc.).

Saying that, Calgary, if they continue to try to diversify, won't be tied to smoking the oil pipe. Its not really just an oil city anymore, though, if the provincial royalties did dry up, the gov't may have to look elsewhere like taxes which may damper it a little.

 

[ummagumma66]

I hope they plan now (city infrastructure) for the future to curb the sprawling issues of the GTA.

Calgary plan?? whats that? this city sprawls over a area larger than New York City!, the province (if they were wise...) should step in and slap a greenbelt around Calgary, because the problem is there are no natural barriers to check the sprawl just the rockies that are like 80 km to the west. as for infastructure they are trying to get the LRT and the roads caught up but the growth here is so explosive. something like 9600 people move to Calgary a month, the other problem is alot of the affordable housing is not so affordable anymore, and there are several thousand homeless now were just 10 years ago there were fewer than 400, and the drugs in the city are spiraling out of control. (though not quite as bad as Vancouver), this city is in desprate need of workers there are more jobs than people.

 

[tudararms]

"I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here.
Currently, 416 has lost a lot of head offices to the 905, but the region has only lost a couple total, while Calgary has only gained net 1 since the 80s (we keep on rehashing the same Post article from last year tracking the movements of the 400 or so largest CDN head offices). Its more the media giving people the ideas that Toronto is losing out to Calgary."

Roch: My point here is more speculative than based on fact. With the rise of Canada's West there is now more of a choice of viable options for doing business in Canada than before; Toronto and Montreal are no longer the only game in town, so to speak. And, with a booming economy, growing population, and lower cost of living it stands to reason that corporate Canada - and corporate America for that matter - will be eying Calgary. It's already happening.

Also, as you say yourself, the "416" (Toronto) has lost a lot of offices to the "905" (suburbs), which is my point exactly: with often prohibitive rental costs in Toronto a lot of corporations are being lured away to Mississauga, North York, Vaughan and other outlaying areas that are aggressively courting big business.

My point in all of this is not to be pessimistic. Rather to simply understand the trends that are happening. I believe that Toronto *can* compete, as long as it is willing and able to change the way it does business.

 

[ummagumma66]

the biggest thing Alberta has to attract new business is low taxes, here as you all know, we pay 6% GST and thats it, I also believe that Corprate taxes are low too, Calgary just needed this cuz in the last few days there are now rumours abound that Imperial Oil is going to be building thier own headquarters in the core, nothing concrete at this time. if ever any of you guys are out in Calgary gimme a call and I'll buy you a pint...

 

[roch5220]

My point in all of this is not to be pessimistic. Rather to simply understand the trends that are happening. I believe that Toronto *can* compete, as long as it is willing and able to change the way it does business.

Fair enough. My only thing I was questioning was when you put that it was already happening already. There is a common misbelief created by the media and Calgary's success that businesses are picking up from 416 and moving to Calgary, when they are moving, but leaving for 905.

I hope though that Calgary does maintain is momentum and becomes a player in Canada. We need more decentralization of economic power, the way that Chicago, LA, SF is to NYC. I don't even think that Toronto and Calgary are competitors, more so, I hope Calgary grows until it becomes more saturated/matured like Toronto (you can argue it has) is, to have 2 established financial centres. Toronto most likely will also be the centre for banking/commerce due to its est. time zone/proximatity to NYC, like NYC, with the nation's only significant stock exchange and banking concentration. While Calgary will hopefully continue to expand its large company base, which will benefit Toronto to a degree in services/finance expertise, and to obtain access to capital markets (ie. the TSX). Hence, my prior belief of synegies between a strong Calgary and Toronto.

 

[unimaginative2]

George Weston, Brookfield, Barrick, Rogers, Canadian Tire, Fairmont, Shoppers, Loblaws, Onyx are a few off the top of my head.

Just to go through them, George Weston is mostly just a holding company for Loblaws, which is in Brampton. Brookfield is just a skeleton-staffed holding company as well, with the main property business run out of New York. Barrick is a big company that I neglected to mention, as is Onex. Rogers, Canadian Tire, and Shoppers are all successful Canadian companies, but they're hardly international-scale headquarters. Fairmont is great in its reach but certainly not in its scale.

That's not to say that Toronto isn't a major business centre, by far the largest in the country, but it is certainly stunning how few international headquarters it has for a city its size. That's the major factor for big flashy headquarters, the main concern for a skyscraper forum like this one. Compared to the major business centres of economies (roughly) our size, we just don't companies like ABN Amro, BHP Billiton, Fortis, Shell, Total, ENI, and countless others

 

[SD2]

Also, as you say yourself, the "416" (Toronto) has lost a lot of offices to the "905" (suburbs), which is my point exactly: with often prohibitive rental costs in Toronto a lot of corporations are being lured away to Mississauga, North York, Vaughan and other outlaying areas that are aggressively courting big business.

A lot of the offices that have moved deal with support-related issues that are suited to the sprawling office complexes the suburbs can provide.

My point in all of this is not to be pessimistic. Rather to simply understand the trends that are happening. I believe that Toronto *can* compete, as long as it is willing and able to change the way it does business.

Toronto is already competing and doing quite well. There is room for improvement but it's not as dire as you make it seem.

There are new office towers under construction, and despite Calgary's boom there have been some some companies from out west making the move to Toronto.

 

[SD2]

Rogers, Canadian Tire, and Shoppers are all successful Canadian companies, but they're hardly international-scale headquarters. Fairmont is great in its reach but certainly not in its scale.

I had no idea Rogers was moving it's main corporate headquarters out west.

 

[jayomatic]

Canadian Tire is not moving its headquarters to Calgary. I know many many people who work at head office. Not going to happen.