[wyliepoon]

Transfeless busbays are the biggest source of fare evasions in the TTC, and one which the TTC never admits nor will address.

Although I don't know if it's the biggest source, I agree that it is a problem since those bus bays/terminals are very easy to get into from the outside.

Scarborough Centre is one case. I've seen on more than one occasion a car driving from the west on Triton Road into Scarborough Centre, do a "kiss and ride" at a bus bay right in front of shocked, fare-paying passengers, and then drive off. The barriers between the fare-paid TTC bus terminal area and unpaid areas such as the Scarborough Town Centre west parking lots and the GO bus terminal can easily be bypassed, and involves a lot less walking than "doing the right thing".

 

[nfitz]

Well, you could always do them like Jane, where there is the typical bus loading area, but for some reason I've never been able to fathom, is not fare-paid (which really threw me the first time I was there, and the driver wanted to see my transfer).

Quite frankly, I've spent a lot of time standing for buses at Coxwell, Pape, and Woodbine, and I really can't recall seeing much in the way of people just walking in without paying. I don't think it's a huge problem.

 

[Darren B]

At most stations you could never fit every bus that stops along the curb without causing traffic chaos. You could at a few, but at most stations, you'd never fit everybody waiting to board a bus on the sidewalks either.

There are better ways to address fare evasion than to eliminate fare-paid boarding areas.

42

Thats true, but why not increase the width of the intersection, and have a lane just for buses. If the buses were timed right, they could pull it off. The money from the sale of air rights would fund this adequatly. NYC does not have busbays. Yes obviously they have more subways, bet they do have significant cross town bus routes. Air rights were invented over Grand Central in NYC. I think its about time the TTC started using that approach over their stations.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Before the Bloor-Danforth subway, passengers transferred to the Bloor streetcar on a prepaid platform in the middle of the street.

 

[Darren B]

Well, you could always do them like Jane, where there is the typical bus loading area, but for some reason I've never been able to fathom, is not fare-paid (which really threw me the first time I was there, and the driver wanted to see my transfer).

Quite frankly, I've spent a lot of time standing for buses at Coxwell, Pape, and Woodbine, and I really can't recall seeing much in the way of people just walking in without paying. I don't think it's a huge problem.

Nfitz, it happens alot at Woodbine. Im there waiting for buses too. I saw it more often at Finch station, and that was just the south side of Finch station. It also has a north side. The typical waiting time for the 36 finch west could be 15 minutes on some evenings. I would see an average of 2 to 3 people entering during those 15 minutes. In the 2 years using that route I saw Special Constables only once stake out the entrace and catch free loaders.

I like Jane's layout, and I think once we get a fare system like NYC's with the transfer recorded right on the card that all busbays should switch to a transfer requirement. But I would want the ultimate step to be one where the TTC sells that land and switches to curbside loading.

 

[nfitz]

Nfitz, it happens alot at Woodbine. Im there waiting for buses too.

I guess the question is what does one mean by a lot. Being a Nazi, I'm probably a lot more tolerant than other people, so perhaps don't spend a lot of time. But honestly, I just haven't noticed peopel walking onto the platform. Walking off to the east, all the time. Smoking yes. Even smoking pot.

The other question, is how do you know that the person in question doesn't have a Metropass in their pocket?

 

[Darren B]

I guess the question is what does one mean by a lot. Being a Nazi, I'm probably a lot more tolerant than other people, so perhaps don't spend a lot of time. But honestly, I just haven't noticed peopel walking onto the platform. Walking off to the east, all the time. Smoking yes. Even smoking pot.

The other question, is how do you know that the person in question doesn't have a Metropass in their pocket?

Thats what the SC's at Finch checked for, the Metropass.

BTW, ever notice the newstand guy smoking weed at Woodbine? I saw him smoking behind the counter one evening

 

[nfitz]

BTW, ever notice the newstand guy smoking weed at Woodbine? I saw him smoking behind the counter one evening

No ... hadn't noticed that. The whole mezzanine stunk of weed the other day, but I figured it was the two guys smoking at the top of the stairs, with the air getting sucked in ...

 

[Railization]

This conversation is ridiculous. You cannot have transfers required at stations like Finch that see some of the highest traffic volumes in the system. This is even more true for Kennedy, actually, because it has more non-905 routes than Finch.

You cannot expect the fare-collector to verify each transfer or pass when you have hundreds of people flooding from bus to subway a minute. Any money made through air rights would be instantly lost to increased labour costs because it would take a huge army to verify transfers of every passenger at every subway station in an even remotely timely manner. The idea is a laughing stock, as it is hugely inefficient, inconvenient, and unprofitable. Ridership would plummet with such an absurd system. There's a very good reason to have the fare-paid surface route connections that we do in the subway, because the volume of passengers is significant. Frankly, I'm surprised stations like Jane get by at all. It's probably a challenge, too, and the TTC would love nothing more than to be able to take passengers directly into the fare-paid zone with the new Jane LRT, and lower the staffing needs of the station in the AM peak-period. The buses could also load much faster if the checking of transfers at the subway station as passengers board weren't required.

And "if they could just time it right" is some of the most unrealistic criteria that could have been thrown into the mix. To suggest that converging routes, of different route-lengths and frequencies, be perfectly timed in mixed traffic is impossible. This is ever more true with branch express services like on Kipling and Finch among others.

 

[nfitz]

You cannot have transfers required at stations like Finch that see some of the highest traffic volumes in the system.

Sure you can - most cities do exactly this. It might be a dumb move, but not half as dumb as some existing TTC policies about transfers.

Don't confuse a bad idea, with an impossible idea - particularily where the bad idea is the norm in most places.

 

[Railization]

Sure you can - most cities do exactly this. It might be a dumb move, but not half as dumb as some existing TTC policies about transfers.

Don't confuse a bad idea, with an impossible idea - particularily where the bad idea is the norm in most places.

Practically speaking, no, you can't, because you'll require too much staff. The TTC would have a far lower cost-recovery ratio doing it that way, and lower ridership. The TTC would have to back to zone-fares if they were to do that.

When you think about the crowding that would result if every TTC bus at Finch, in addition to the army of other buses from 905-land that run to Finch, you'd have a problem keeping the station safe. It's not designed to accomodate such traffic. None of the non-core stations are (and even the core ones are really struggling), because we have fare-paid loading areas. It is these fare-paid loading areas that allow the small fare-gates since it only needs to be large enough to accomodate walk-in ridership. Otherwise you'd have much wider fare collection areas with at least double the staff as is commonly seen at the downtown core stations. You cannot have that across the system at every station, it is far too wasteful in cost.

 

[nfitz]

Practically speaking, no, you can't, because you'll require too much staff. The TTC would have a far lower cost-recovery ratio doing it that way, and lower ridership. The TTC would have to back to zone-fares if they were to do that.

You assume that TTC policies are set based on logic and practicality!

You wouldn't add staff. Drivers would simply load all the vehicles at the station at the front, and glance (or ignore) tickets as they go pass. This works fine at Jane station and Dufferin station, and there's a lot of buses loading there. Why would it cause disaster elsewhere?

It is dumb idea, I agree.

 

[junctionist]

Why even discuss the bad idea? Railization dismissed it, and rightfully so.

 

[toraerach]

Well, you could always do them like Jane, where there is the typical bus loading area, but for some reason I've never been able to fathom, is not fare-paid (which really threw me the first time I was there, and the driver wanted to see my transfer).

The reason for this is that Jane used to be on the boundary of two fare zones. Transferring from the bus to the subway required you to pay another fare. When they eliminated fare zones, I guess they didn't want to pay to bring the bus bays into the fare-paid zone.

 

[golodhendil]

Have there ever been studies done to evaluate the cost-benefit of implementing a smartcard system (which TTC seems to be so vehemently against, for some reason) compared to the cost of fare evasion, counterfeit tokens, hiring staff and special constables, etc?

And Re: the earlier comments about air rights. They could do that and develop on top of existing bus terminals regardless, but again, that seems to be another thing that TTC (and many North American transit operators) can't wrap their head around.