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- Thread starter allabootmatt
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calimehtar
Active Member
Recent developments in so-called transit policy have got me thinking -
First of all Transit City seems like a pretty reasonable plan to me. Toronto is a big city that is spread pretty thin at the edges. Some sort of rapid transit is necessary, a subway on Finch might not be worth the money, for example.
Secondly, I don't know anyone who doesn't think we've wasted twenty years when we should have been building subways. The downtown relief line comes to mind. Queen street, Liberty Village, Mimico, and the central and eastern waterfront are in desparate need of better transit...
It's pretty clear that the federal government isn't going to be paying for subways, and the province has their own budget problems these days. Residents of the GTA at least have motivation to fund subways - we suffer from the gridlock, and we stand to benefit when the subways are built. London's congestion charge shows how a politically controversial idea can suddenly become popular when people experience the benefits first-hand.
In short, I don't think we should be forced to choose between transit city and whatever Ford has to offer. We should push for transit city plus DRL, Sheppard subway, and more. We should push for an open-minded approach to funding it - tolls, congestion charges, market pricing for parking, funding from developers etc.
We should also push to separate of the low-level decision-making from politics, somehow, ie give TTC or Metrolinx a certain amount of independence to simply do what they think is best.
First of all Transit City seems like a pretty reasonable plan to me. Toronto is a big city that is spread pretty thin at the edges. Some sort of rapid transit is necessary, a subway on Finch might not be worth the money, for example.
Secondly, I don't know anyone who doesn't think we've wasted twenty years when we should have been building subways. The downtown relief line comes to mind. Queen street, Liberty Village, Mimico, and the central and eastern waterfront are in desparate need of better transit...
It's pretty clear that the federal government isn't going to be paying for subways, and the province has their own budget problems these days. Residents of the GTA at least have motivation to fund subways - we suffer from the gridlock, and we stand to benefit when the subways are built. London's congestion charge shows how a politically controversial idea can suddenly become popular when people experience the benefits first-hand.
In short, I don't think we should be forced to choose between transit city and whatever Ford has to offer. We should push for transit city plus DRL, Sheppard subway, and more. We should push for an open-minded approach to funding it - tolls, congestion charges, market pricing for parking, funding from developers etc.
We should also push to separate of the low-level decision-making from politics, somehow, ie give TTC or Metrolinx a certain amount of independence to simply do what they think is best.
EnviroTO
Senior Member
If all evidence suggests that your boss is making a bad decision then you have a tough decision on your hands. Shareholders, the electorate, the board, or whoever your boss ultimately reports to would probably hope that you would put the greater interests ahead of personal aspirations or kissing your bosses ass.
Isn't Websters job, along with all other department heads, to feed info to their masters? You make it sound like Webster shouldn't be talking to Stintz, but Stintz is the TTC chair. All reports and data should land on Stintz desk and the other board members desks so they can do their job effectively. I find the idea that because Ford wants to build the subway on Sheppard that a civil engineer in charge of the TTC should report everything is perfect and okey dokie to Stintz (lest he would be feeding her information) as offensive. I also find it offensive to play him as a puppet-master over Stintz where he orchestrated her actions like she was a poor susceptible woman with no brain of her own.
Palma
Senior Member
What would Webster have to gain to do all this supposedly manipulation with Stinz? His contract was up soon in 2013. Apparently he was going to retire or at least knew his contract may not be renewed. Yet somehow he conspired with Stinz or used her to out forward his vision?. You kept hearing councillors keep saying that transit City still needed to be voted on and that Ford could not decide on his own it was dead like he tried to do. So how was all this Websters doing?
Eug
Senior Member
TTC commission must be more 'cohesive,' Stintz says
Stintz told CBC News on Wednesday that she is still stunned by the dismissal of Gary Webster, who up until Tuesday evening had served as the TTC’s chief general manager for more than four years.
And to clarify a few things that again people seem confused about in my posts, and some comments:
1. I don't support his firing. I already said that in previous posts. However, that doesn't mean I thought he was just a lame duck TTC GM either. I saw him as a guy with a very specific goal that was something neither the Fords nor Metrolinx really wanted, and he was going to push hard to get it. If it meant feeding off Stintz to do it, then he'd do it. Luckily for him, he's near retirement, and knew he wouldn't get fired for cause.
2. I don't hate Transit City. However, I preferred Ford buried Eglinton plan. I don't care about Sheppard at this time. Ford's plan was braindead there, but I don't care. His funding plan for Sheppard basically was a non-starter, which would just simply mean it wouldn't get built any time soon. In fact, that's one reason I liked the plan, because no funds would be allocated to Sheppard at all in the current round of funding.
3. Stintz wants to run for mayor, despite her claims otherwise. While I will never vote for Ford (and never have either), I wouldn't be able to bring myself to vote for Stintz either.
Stintz told CBC News on Wednesday that she is still stunned by the dismissal of Gary Webster, who up until Tuesday evening had served as the TTC’s chief general manager for more than four years.
? I never said he was a puppet master. I said they fed off each other to further their respective agendas. I have more respect for Webster than Stintz though. Stintz comes across as a slip-in-the-back-door-while-feigning-friendship type, whereas it seems Webster was at least consistent. It seems he always hated Ford's plan, and refused to back down.
And to clarify a few things that again people seem confused about in my posts, and some comments:
1. I don't support his firing. I already said that in previous posts. However, that doesn't mean I thought he was just a lame duck TTC GM either. I saw him as a guy with a very specific goal that was something neither the Fords nor Metrolinx really wanted, and he was going to push hard to get it. If it meant feeding off Stintz to do it, then he'd do it. Luckily for him, he's near retirement, and knew he wouldn't get fired for cause.
2. I don't hate Transit City. However, I preferred Ford buried Eglinton plan. I don't care about Sheppard at this time. Ford's plan was braindead there, but I don't care. His funding plan for Sheppard basically was a non-starter, which would just simply mean it wouldn't get built any time soon. In fact, that's one reason I liked the plan, because no funds would be allocated to Sheppard at all in the current round of funding.
3. Stintz wants to run for mayor, despite her claims otherwise. While I will never vote for Ford (and never have either), I wouldn't be able to bring myself to vote for Stintz either.
jje1000
Senior Member
CanadianNational
Senior Member
"Is stupid really stupid / or a different kind of smart?" went a pop song once, acidly.
Are the blunt impulses we're seeing Ford act on more enduring, more constant and influential than anything his intelligence can devise? And aren't we seeing agendas tripped up and altered to fit it?
From the Globe:
"Provincial sources indicated that the government is committed to building the Eglinton line, one way or another. But a senior official conceded that “one of the options that would have to be discussed,” if the dysfunction at City Hall persists, is diverting some of the money previously earmarked for the Sheppard or Finch lines to other transit projects in the Greater Toronto Area."
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...g-coalition-to-derail-subways/article2347073/
Basically, Ford might only be able to speak of subways, but he is incapable of conceiving them. He might speak consciously of starting things, but functions unconsciously and thoroughly as a stopper.
Ford's only gift may be to speak as if he knew things well and simply, while not knowing his own mind, such as it is. A decoy strategy, I think, and a coping mechanism in the face of real adversity.
I don't think Ford's conscious endgame is the destruction of the TTC, or government funding for transit, or the destruction of transit in Toronto, or destructive contempt for the city. I think, however, as someone who's only been capable of absorbing what he was exposed to when he was young, and not much more, he's in a position to further these things despite himself. Or he's in a position for those who influence him deeply to further these things.
Either way, it's a sad and disturbing thing.
Are the blunt impulses we're seeing Ford act on more enduring, more constant and influential than anything his intelligence can devise? And aren't we seeing agendas tripped up and altered to fit it?
From the Globe:
"Provincial sources indicated that the government is committed to building the Eglinton line, one way or another. But a senior official conceded that “one of the options that would have to be discussed,” if the dysfunction at City Hall persists, is diverting some of the money previously earmarked for the Sheppard or Finch lines to other transit projects in the Greater Toronto Area."
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...g-coalition-to-derail-subways/article2347073/
Basically, Ford might only be able to speak of subways, but he is incapable of conceiving them. He might speak consciously of starting things, but functions unconsciously and thoroughly as a stopper.
Ford's only gift may be to speak as if he knew things well and simply, while not knowing his own mind, such as it is. A decoy strategy, I think, and a coping mechanism in the face of real adversity.
I don't think Ford's conscious endgame is the destruction of the TTC, or government funding for transit, or the destruction of transit in Toronto, or destructive contempt for the city. I think, however, as someone who's only been capable of absorbing what he was exposed to when he was young, and not much more, he's in a position to further these things despite himself. Or he's in a position for those who influence him deeply to further these things.
Either way, it's a sad and disturbing thing.
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k10ery
Senior Member
Hey! Some guy named Rob Ford has written a surprisingly literate defence of subways in the Globe. What a coincidence he has the same name as our troglodytic mayor!
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/opinion/a-better-way-to-retool-torontos-ailing-ttc/article2346836/
Seriously it is remarkable that Ford is now supposedly in favor of new "revenue sources" for transit, including a parking tax on business. If he'd been honest about the need for new taxes from the start we might be having a sensible discussion on the topic by now. But today it looks like a death bed conversion.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/opinion/a-better-way-to-retool-torontos-ailing-ttc/article2346836/
Seriously it is remarkable that Ford is now supposedly in favor of new "revenue sources" for transit, including a parking tax on business. If he'd been honest about the need for new taxes from the start we might be having a sensible discussion on the topic by now. But today it looks like a death bed conversion.
MisterF
Senior Member
Again, not backing down is exactly what he's supposed to do, that's his job. If he'd backed down that would have made him a bad civil servant and his professional opinion would have lost all weight. It's not about hating a plan or pushing an agenda, it's about evaluating an issue and offering impartial advice to Council. And all the evidence suggests that's exactly what he did. Some very promnent people are using some very strong language to praise Gary Webster and his professional integrity. These conspiricy theories about how he was supposedly plotting with Karen Stinz are frankly ridiculous.
BTW, no civil servant should ever worry about putting a target on their back, or however you put it, for doing their job. That's why if he does sue for wrongful dismissal he'll win.
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typezed
Active Member
Some reporter needs to aim a camera at Rob Ford while asking him about his proposal for new taxes and watch how fast he retreats to claiming there is no need for taxes, that subways can be paid through finding greater efficiency at City Hall. If he's serious let's see him bring it to the council floor - charges per parking space fronting Scarborough and Etobicoke and Finch West/Emery Village strip malls, all targeted towards subway building, sponsored by your mayor, Rob Ford.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
Plus someone need to force feed him the question - why should at least 10+ years of parking surchages from the entire city (if I am not mistaken) go to fund a line with rather low ridership, instead of DRL.
And for the record, someone should remind his worship that the TTC didn't start with subways.
AoD
And for the record, someone should remind his worship that the TTC didn't start with subways.
AoD
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Eug
Senior Member
You mean like David Miller, the guy who was so hostile to Julian Fantino?
jeff316
Active Member
People often don't fully comprehend that there are two roles to the public servant - being unwavering in advice, and loyal in implementation. Webster was fulling the first role when he presented his findings. I haven't seen evidence that he would have not implemented Ford's plan had council not reversed it.
Palma
Senior Member
The latest is Rob and Doug Ford will be hosting The City, a 2-hour afternoon show on News talk 1010. Josh Matlow has hosted it up until now and I was surprised this morning when I heard these 2 were going to be hosting it. As Jerry Agar the 9-12 M-F morning talk show host said, it was not the Josh Matlow show but The City which means any number of councilors can host it. I guess after the Fords make fools of themselves there will be other councilors to host it. I cannot believe his handlers are making him do this. But I cannot believe they won’t be around them when the show is on.
Rob Ford was talking and saying its not true there is no money for subways. A caller asked him that the LRT should really be a subway along Eglinton. Rob Ford responds and says that its Metrolinx that is building the Eglinton line and he to would rather have subways but if there is no money then its LRT underground. I could not believe it. He finally admits “if there is no money” and that Eglinton is LRT and not a true subway that residents of Toronto understand it to be like the Yonge/University and Bloor subway cars. So why was he going around and saying Scarborough is getting screwed and they want subways instead of saying they are getting LRT that the rest of Eglinton is getting except it will be at surface which allows Finch and Sheppard to get their LRT at surface. And the host lets him get away with it. But then he is a conservative and is on Fords side.
Rob Ford was talking and saying its not true there is no money for subways. A caller asked him that the LRT should really be a subway along Eglinton. Rob Ford responds and says that its Metrolinx that is building the Eglinton line and he to would rather have subways but if there is no money then its LRT underground. I could not believe it. He finally admits “if there is no money” and that Eglinton is LRT and not a true subway that residents of Toronto understand it to be like the Yonge/University and Bloor subway cars. So why was he going around and saying Scarborough is getting screwed and they want subways instead of saying they are getting LRT that the rest of Eglinton is getting except it will be at surface which allows Finch and Sheppard to get their LRT at surface. And the host lets him get away with it. But then he is a conservative and is on Fords side.
Eug
Senior Member
^^^ I personally don't see the issue there. Underground LRT is rapid transit.