Golfing guy
Active Member
Love this program. Cities around the world will be copying it. They are all in the same boat as us.
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- Thread starter Surrealplaces
- Start date
Albertasaurus
Active Member
It's already gotten lots of attention across Canada and the US (from the Washington Post no less)! 30% vacancies is no longer a Calgary-only problem, and I suspect that if you include vacant sublet space that has not yet come back to market that cities like San Francisco might have higher vacancies than we do. In a way, it's to Calgary's benefit that we we already needed to tackle the vacancy problem well before Covid, it gave us a huge head start.
adamyyc
Active Member
Major construction in Calgary's Marda Loop
The City of Calgary saying they're speeding up work for the Marda Loop Main Streets project, but at a cost for people in the area.
calgary.citynews.ca
darwink
Senior Member
I’d say still that while it is successful it its metric that the metric is the wrong one. The subsidy is large enough I don’t think any market housing should have been eligible.
There is a reason the feds and province hasn’t come in to support it after initial signals of support and even dollars allocate to the general concept: the program is a pure subsidy and doesn’t accrue a public good.
There is a reason the feds and province hasn’t come in to support it after initial signals of support and even dollars allocate to the general concept: the program is a pure subsidy and doesn’t accrue a public good.
YYCALGARY
New Member
I wonder if we will get to a point where new office towers will be needed because of the success of conversions like this. I know we have a long way yet to go, but hoping that we incrementally approach a balanced market. Selfishly I just want Calgary to get a supertall.
Mountain Man
Senior Member
IF that happens, maybe Oxford Tower can come back to life. I'd be surprised to see a major tower be office only though, mixed use seems to be the way to go.
CalgaryTiger
Senior Member
I'd take a tall proposal (mixed commercial and residential, see the Stantec in Edmonton). Toronto's Supertall The One struggles and that market WAS crazy (granted mostly investor condos as far as I can tell).
Financially, on its face, no it does not. But more people downtown, even in market housing, is a good thing. I'd argue the market housing actually brings people with more disposable income which creates more retail and dining options and more of an economic churn. The concern was never a financial return on investment, IMO. It was about does this make Calgary a better city and not have huge negative affects on our budget? I think the answer is a resounding yes.
MichaelS
Senior Member
I thought that was the ENTIRE reason? As in, we are so reliant on downtown tax revenue, we needed to do this to stem the bleeding and try and recoup that tax loss. Was the $121ish million successful in doing so? How long until we recover that investment? If the answer is never, how is that a good thing?
The vitriol we hear directed at suburbs is because they are not financially viable for the most part, needing a big subsidy. But somehow subsidizing the downtown is considered fine, because vibes?
Albertasaurus
Active Member
I'd argue that the adaptive reuse of vacant buildings into residential and other uses is a public good from a "downtown revitalization" perspective. If we didn't create a program that incentivized finding a way to reuse existing vacant buildings, there'd be a risk of them sitting unused for decades like Plaza Tower in New Orleans (which may now be demolished sadly), or a number of skyscrapers in places like Detroit and Memphis that have been vacant for decades. This would likely result in an even worse scenario (in my opinion) of some of them being demolished so that our downtown would be a combination of skyscrapers surrounded by blocks of parking lots like so many large US cities. And I won't even get into the safety concerns a largely derelict downtown would bring. I see the conversions as an important investment, as are the Event Centre, Glenbow, Central Library and Arts Commons, in shaping the future of downtown. Getting downtown to thrive again (which seems to be slowly happening) is a public good, IMO.
Memphis' tallest building is being renovated into mixed use space after sitting vacant a long time. Here's what the mayor of Memphis said about that project and the difficulties in executing it:
“It’s very difficult to make a project like this work. It’s much, much easier to tear this building down and offer a vacant lot up for development and we would see a nice six or seven-story building come in its place,” said Memphis Mayor-Elect Paul Young. “You wouldn’t see a 37-story tower come in its place. So, I’m personally excited to see this history preserved in our city. This is what brings the character, the vibe to our city.”
Memphis' tallest building is being renovated into mixed use space after sitting vacant a long time. Here's what the mayor of Memphis said about that project and the difficulties in executing it:
“It’s very difficult to make a project like this work. It’s much, much easier to tear this building down and offer a vacant lot up for development and we would see a nice six or seven-story building come in its place,” said Memphis Mayor-Elect Paul Young. “You wouldn’t see a 37-story tower come in its place. So, I’m personally excited to see this history preserved in our city. This is what brings the character, the vibe to our city.”
CalgaryTiger
Senior Member
As you say, stop the bleeding. I have no idea what the financial details work out to be but a occupied building is better than vacant one. We make fun of cornerstone but look at the businesses that have opened up in its first floor, is that not worth something?
When you have so much invested in the downtown already, you need to take care of that investment by diversifying what you're investing in, not just places for people to go but places for people to live. The ROI on downtown investment is much higher than suburban investment.
Technically vibes is short for vibrant, so yeah vibes in the sense of people walking around, putting eyes on the street, and spending their money at downtown businesses.
Albertasaurus
Active Member
Back in the day, when Boeing was looking to relocate its HQ from Seattle to somewhere more central in the USA, Oklahoma City made a strong effort to lure them. They offered generous incentives and the low cost of doing business in a pro-business red state. What ultimately lost them the HQ was their small, stagnant downtown, and Boeing went instead to Chicago (and later, metro DC). The result of that lesson was a lot of public investment that helped turn downtown OKC into a much more interesting place, which continues to this day with their ridiculous supertall proposal.
OKC's downtown is still tiny in comparison to ours, but it's hard to argue against the fact that they seem to have turned perceptions around. And our downtown had been bleeding office tenants, workers and retail space since around 2015-2016. Downtown is our city's showcase - having a healthy, thriving downtown is crucial to the regional economy, to ensuring our city continues to grow, and to building our tourism industry.
OKC's downtown is still tiny in comparison to ours, but it's hard to argue against the fact that they seem to have turned perceptions around. And our downtown had been bleeding office tenants, workers and retail space since around 2015-2016. Downtown is our city's showcase - having a healthy, thriving downtown is crucial to the regional economy, to ensuring our city continues to grow, and to building our tourism industry.
JoeUrban
Active Member
With many of these conversions around 7th street this might lead to 'Downtown West' expanding a block to the east. Initially I expected this program to sprinkle residential in the core but it may instead just shrink the CDB.
trtcttc
Active Member
Our office vacancies vary widely between AA and the rest. The conversions mostly removing supply at the low end, where vacancies are 28-38%. The AA towers are only 13% vacant, which is still high. To get a new tower, that vacancy would need to drop but more likely from corporate relocation than conversion of class B/C buildings.
darwink
Senior Member
Not all good things deserve tax dollars.
darwink
Senior Member
We could have used the same money for other revitalization purposes.