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And it is NOT a PanAm specific train.
In what way, is the 4-train a day GO service in July from Union to West Harbour, called "HAM Soccer" that is only scheduled to run on days when there is soccer being played in Hamilton, at times designed to arrive before games, and leave after the games finish not a PanAm specific train?

I'm referring to the soccer specials GO is running only to West Harbour for the games - not whatever service West Harbour gets in late 2015 or 2016, whenever that begins.
 
In what way, is the 4-train a day GO service in July from Union to West Harbour, called "HAM Soccer" that is only scheduled to run on days when there is soccer being played in Hamilton, at times designed to arrive before games, and leave after the games finish not a PanAm specific train?

I'm referring to the soccer specials GO is running only to West Harbour for the games - not whatever service West Harbour gets in late 2015 or 2016, whenever that begins.
Those are just event trains. Like extra James SuperCrawl trains, Niagara excursion trains, extra Exhibition event trains, Pride trains, etc.

This is from a Metrolinx PDF:

ADDITIONAL SERVICE TO SPECIAL EVENTS
GO Transit offers additional train service across the system
to annual events, including Toronto Pride, Caribbean
Carnival, CNE, the Toronto Santa Claus Parade and Toronto
Indy.


(Giving you the "so what?" bemused glare with a waving *shrug*.)

Regardless of whether your positive of PanAm is positive or negative, Pan Am is just lubricant to help many much-needed infrastructural projects to get kickstarted, for better or for worse -- such as the much-needed Union revitalization, etc. It may be political backstaging, but the West Harbour GO and Confederation GO is quite sound and needed from an infrastructural perspective, given the congruence to slow long-term eventual expansion towards Niagara Falls some decade in the future, plus the Burlington/Aldershot crowding from Hamiltonians, and the lack of parking at Hamilton downtown GO). The two Hamilton stations have very distinct target commuter markets (transit users, downtown users, counter commuters, condo dwellers, parking garage availability) and it will greatly increase GO usage by Hamiltonians over the years, especially as Hamilton expands.
 
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Yes, I realise that. That's what I was discussing. Why not just send these 4 event trains a day to to Hamilton Centre this summer.
Of course they could have. (If CP let them run that many per day at those times).

But we all know that GO wants to expand to Niagara eventually (just not as quickly as hoped), and they're slowly working their way. Broken promises for sure, but eventually they get there, much like they did for Barrie Waterfront and Kitchener (delayed promise eventually kept many years later). They start with a West Harbour GO incremental. Then Confederation GO incremental. Next thing, you'll start hearing about Grimsby GO (cheap incremental for a couple trains) and then finally St. Catharines GO (cheap incremental for a couple more trains). The budget difference for all stations between Aldershot and St. Catherines are extremely incremental (e.g. a few tens millions dollar incremental per station) compared to the Welland Canal problem ($750M+). The big doozy is the Niagara Falls station because of Welland Canal. It's been the hallmark of the GO incremental approach for many years.

They certainly used PanAm to help jumpstart a station's worth of increment, and now that we've got facilities at JamesNorth and Lewis (Stoney Creek overnight parking), the Stoney Creek GO station is another good safe catch for Mountain Hamiltoners that would prefer it if they're passing it early enough; over gambling on Burlington after a long wait trying to crawl over Skyway during peak. Yes, those people can just drive to Burlington or Aldershot, but it can be hell getting across the skyway during peak hour -- and at some points of peak it is already faster to take an extra 25 minutes on a GO train from Stoney Creek GO Confederation station with a short walk to trackside, rather than looping around to Burlington Station with a longer walk from parking. Skyway and 403 will become worse with population growth 10 years from know. We need these extra Hamilton GO stations now, a few weeks ago I almost got locked out of Aldershot for the first time in my life (Grabbed the last parking spot after hunting Mimico-style for almost ten minutes. And Aldershot has almost 2000 parking spots -- more than one freeway-lane-peak-hour worth of cars!). At least until I can catch an LRT directly to Hunter (I'm one block off the proposed LRT route).

What I am saying, is that beyond the pedestrian-friendly downtown Hamilton GO station, the West Habour GO and Confederation GO are also simultaneously badly needed stations with the Hamiltonians overflowing Burlington/Aldershot parking lots already because of zero free parking in Hamilton downtown and less convenient hours (until AD2W occurs). It is quite likely Hamilton GO commuters from the 3 Hamilton stations will more than triple. In fact, building a brand new GO station can actually cost the same as building a parking garage for an existing GO station.
Citation: Oakville's new parking garage by itself cost $41 million, while the entire JamesNorth station project (West Harbour) cost $44 million.

And Hamilton's West Harbour is far more walkable (bigger residential population within walking distance) than Oakville GO. Yet simultaneously even also budgets-in a small parking garage (300 cars) to lighten the load of Aldershot/Burlington and bring in new GO commuters who otherwise drive the 403 today. As Hamilton's population grows, all of these GO stations are going to be utilized pretty well over time. I routinely see hundreds of people board/disembark at Aldershot (the 7:48am GOtrain departing Aldershot, had several hundred embarking simultaneously -- a far more convenient time than the 7:15am last train at Downtown GO), with many cars bearing Hamilton bumperstickers, etc. Some of those even drive past the downtown Hamilton GO station, due to lack of parking or inconvenient itineraries, a problem that West Harbour will partially solve before the AD2W era, while also providing Hamilton with a 2nd pedestrian-friendly GO station (which in itself, will be a good draw for the surrounding residential neighborhoods, including residential expansions)

Even though West Harbour is slightly further than downtown, it's quite walkable being smack at the boundary between the city businesses south and residential neighbourhoods north, so it will draw quite a few people who won't use the planned parking garage at West Harbour.

Again, it is not like Greece and useless Olympics infrastructure. This is real infrastructure (regardless of whomever's love for PanAm), not "PanScam infrastructure" as some pundits and commentators love call it, the facts and evidence points to infrastructure much needed with a growing Hamilton. Better use of money today than adding four or six extra lanes to 403, I say. Add just two extra lanes instead, and spend the rest on GOtrain expansiosn instead.

In a perfect world, we'd merge Hunter and JamesNorth. But these two stations have extremely distinct, clearly different advantages (downtown proximity, LRT proximity, parking availability, service frequency, through-corridor to Niagara, etc). Hamilton needs both, evidenced by Aldershot recently starting to overflow sometimes again (Even with its recent mini-parking-expansion a a few months ago).
 
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Of course they could have. (If CP let them run that many per day at those times).
Yes, CP constraint might have been an issue. But I'd be shocked if it was show-stopper for just a 2-week event.

Not sure what the rest you wrote ... I'd suggest distilling most paragraphs into 20 words or less to make them readable.
 
And Hamilton's West Harbour is far more walkable (bigger residential population within walking distance) than Oakville GO. Yet simultaneously even also budgets-in a small parking garage (300 cars) to lighten the load of Aldershot/Burlington and bring in new GO commuters who otherwise drive the 403 today. As Hamilton's population grows, all of these GO stations are going to be utilized pretty well over time.

I don't follow the Hamilton scene that closely but is something happening that would suggest to you that Hamilton is going to see significant growth? Between 2006 and 2011 the Hamilton CSD saw growth of 3.1% (less than 1% per year).
 
I don't follow the Hamilton scene that closely but is something happening that would suggest to you that Hamilton is going to see significant growth? Between 2006 and 2011 the Hamilton CSD saw growth of 3.1% (less than 1% per year).

There was actually an article in the Star today, which was specifically about single detached homes, but it mentioned Hamilton as one of the markets seeing the most growth (along with Barrie and Kitchener-Waterloo) due to lack of affordable supply in the GTA. Unfortunately it didn't provide numbers.

Also, this is anecdotal, but I do know a lot of people who have moved to Hamilton, Dundas, or Stoney Creek due to this issue in the last two years.
 
There was actually an article in the Star today, which was specifically about single detached homes, but it mentioned Hamilton as one of the markets seeing the most growth (along with Barrie and Kitchener-Waterloo) due to lack of affordable supply in the GTA. Unfortunately it didn't provide numbers.

Also, this is anecdotal, but I do know a lot of people who have moved to Hamilton, Dundas, or Stoney Creek due to this issue in the last two years.

thanks...will look up the article....but even before I read it I suspect it is not going to help much.

1) availaibility of lots to build new single family homes is not going to produce the sort of growth that, say, mid/highrise sites would

2)....if there is available single family sites that produce net new population they are not likely to be downtown near the two GO stations....any new home building of sfd in downtown Hamilton would be replacing existing homes with newer homes...no?

As for people moving to Hamilton...yes there has been lots of talk/anecdotes about people moving to the Hammer because of the lovely, large single family dwellings that can be had for cheaper than anywhere in the GTA (even lower, I hear than my poor old home town of Brampton)....but that has been going on for a while yet it has produced pretty anemic growth rates.....suggesting, to me, that those people moving into Hamilton to take advantage of those lower prices have, in large, just been replacing people who are leaving Hamilton for whatever reason.
 
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I don't follow the Hamilton scene that closely but is something happening that would suggest to you that Hamilton is going to see significant growth? Between 2006 and 2011 the Hamilton CSD saw growth of 3.1% (less than 1% per year).
As for people moving to Hamilton...yes there has been lots of talk/anecdotes about people moving to the Hammer because of the lovely, large single family dwellings that can be had for cheaper than anywhere in the GTA (even lower, I hear than my poor old home town of Brampton)....but that has been going on for a while yet it has produced pretty anemic growth rates.....suggesting, to me, that those people moving into Hamilton to take advantage of those lower prices have, in large, just been replacing people who are leaving Hamilton for whatever reason.
Don't forget Hamilton commuter growth is faster than Hamilton population growth; consider old steelboom-era pensioners dying off and being replaced by Toronto commuters.

The anemic growth rate is starting to accelerating a bit, thanks to the multiple new condo towers being built for the first time in Hamilton (a recent phenomenon), as well as slow density increases. Also, a lot of poorer boom-era Hamiltonians, as they retire or die off, are making way for richer Torontoians, causing a mix that needs careful growth to address without upsetting both groups, the tricky mixed-income situations. Which, delicately speaking, Hamilton needs to carefully address -- there's the people who want to kick the poor out, while there's those who believe in a mixed approach, etc. The ying and yang of gentrification, of course. But there's plenty of room for everyone, shifting within city, with the enlarging downtown core. It is not as fast a growth rate as Toronto.

Along with several condos under construction downtown already, there's about a dozen condos on the drawing board now, which will show up on the population-growth radar eventually, contributing to population spike within walking distance along the B-Line route. Every single one of them is within a short walk of the B-Line. The population growth within walk of B-Line exceeds average Hamilton-wide population growth.

The population decline of disadvantage Lower City has long been arresting itself and rebounding. Certainly, it is token growth compared to Toronto's gangbusters condo boom. During house hunting, when we were checking neighbours near houses we looked at, renter neighbours "we noticed more families moving in" -- multiple anecdotes -- has happened recently in the Lower City in the housing within a kilometer of Gage Park, even in the poorer lands near Barton Ave (what many real estate agents often said it was an "undesirable place to live"), and probably has not yet shown up on census. (2016 or 2021 census shall be interesting, probably a small uptick in growth rate but a slightly faster small uptick in average salary per resident.)

Also, people around here are remarking that the former welfare/pensioner renters (from boomtown Hamilton era of yesteryear), growing old and passing away or unable to live alone, have slowly been making way to families raising kids, commenting how the prostitutes have disappeared off several streets and retreated to a smaller area (into a smaller problematic area), and some of the formerly-tougher prostitute-travelled areas now have kids playing on the streets today during daytime, in classic old suburbia that our parents enjoyed in the 20th century heyday, but is much harder for today's struggling middle class inside GTA and Vancouver.

These multiple factors (more kids being raised now in Hamilton, rising incomes of the average Hamiltonian due to influx of Toronto commuters, and density increases via new condos now being built), combined, is gradually lifting Hamilton's total taxpayer and active worker base, including by rising average incomes, and active workers actually have a demand for better transit opportunities. And Mac students too, a frequent user of Aldershot GO midday trains. There is also talk of the creation of new employment lands in the wake of U.S. Steel's eventual departure, which will provide local work growth opportunities (Hamilton is starved for new employment lands).

Hamilton needs to address many problems, and there's been lots of disappointments over the many decades (whether it be the Eaton Centre bankruptcy, not getting an NHL team, the steel employment decimation, etc) but many factors are converging right now to make this a sustained turnaround, and there are actually now finally desirable areas in the Lower City to live, and rapidly expanding from there. The infrastructure is showing increasing strain, and within a few years, they'll be forced to expand the GO stations one way or another (expanding existing stations or adding new stations).

Clearly, the province figured that adding new stations was the best bang for the buck, considering it is congruent with expansion deeper into the Niagara Pennisula, even if JamesNorth piggybacked off PanAm to get started. So it's not just Hamilton commuter growth (MUCH faster than Hamilton's population growth) that the province is after; it's also the purpose of extnesion into Niagara Pennisula, something not feasible with the Hamilton downtown spur.
 
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Yes, CP constraint might have been an issue. But I'd be shocked if it was show-stopper for just a 2-week event.

Not sure what the rest you wrote ... I'd suggest distilling most paragraphs into 20 words or less to make them readable.

TL;DR: "Coles Notes" edition of my ramblings.

There's different good reasons to have both GO spurs through Hamilton.
It's not possible to combine the two stations' pros and cons.

One station will have free parking much closer to many Hamiltonians than Aldershot.
The other station has no parking but is on our main crosstown public transit route (B-Line BRT, which wants to become LRT)

One station is within walking distance of Hamilton's office concentration.
The other station is directly on the route to Niagara Falls.

One station is in a corridor owned by CP.
The other station is in a corridor owned by CN.
This also gives leverage and flexibility.

Toronto has 7 GOtrain routes and a UPX spur, and several stations.
So it is not strange if Hamilton gets 2 or 3 GOtrain stations.

Brampton has smaller population than Hamilton.
Yet Brampton has 3 GOtrain stations.

More residential neighborhoods live within walking distance of West Harbour GO than within walking of Oakville GO.
For the price of an Oakville parking garage ($41 million), the whole West Harbour station infrastructure is being built ($44 million).

Why build a parking garage at Aldershot, when you can build a whole new GO station for the same price?
Considering West Harbour GO station is conveniently directly on the Niagara Falls GO route.

Confederation GO Station (Stoney Creek) is one station even closer to Niagara Falls.
With West Harbour GO and Confederation GO, we are a grand total of 2 GO stations closer to Niagara Falls!

There is slow station-by-station expansion to Niagara Falls over the coming decade or two.
Even the longer train route from Stoney Creek can be faster than a clogged peak-period Skyway to Burlington GO.

More Hamiltonians drive to Aldershot than go to Hamilton GO, because of lack of parking, lack of fast transit, and/or inconvenient train times.
Aldershot is exploding at seams with Hamiltonian commuters, including me.
1700-car parking lot becoming full more often.
Many cars parked at Aldershot with Hamilton paraphernalia, Hamilton dealership plate frames, or Hamilton bumper stickers.

In short: Hamilton needs all three GO stations.
 
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Toronto has 7 GOtrain routes and a UPX spur.
So it is not weird if Hamilton gets 2 GOtrain spurs.

I admire your passion for your city...and while I don't agree with everything you say....I understand your meaning...except for this bit.

Toronto does not have 7 GO routes....there are 7 GO routes around Toronto that connect those areas/cities to Toronto. Toronto is the hub and the 7 routes are meant to connect the places and people to Toronto. If no one along, say, the Barrie line wanted to get to Toronto do you think there would be a GO line built/operated to connect Torontonians to Barrie? Not a chance.

Whether or not Hamilton should get two divergent spurs of the LSW line or not is beyond my knowledge of Hamilton (although I can see pluses and minuses to it) but there is no correlation between the number of lines that cut through Toronto.
 
Ok, removing the route part, I amend it to:

Toronto has multiple GO stations.
So it is not weird if Hamilton gets more than 1 GO station.
 
Ok, removing the route part, I amend it to:

Toronto has multiple GO stations.
So it is not weird if Hamilton gets more than 1 GO station.

I'll help you out....better comparison (although not perfect) would be Mississauga....Toronto has multiple stations precisely because of those multiple routes carrying people to Toronto.....mississauga has multiple stations on 3 different routes to Toronto ...still not precisely analogous to Hamilton (can't think of any city where one GO line is split into spurs in a city)
 
thanks...will look up the article....but even before I read it I suspect it is not going to help much.

1) availaibility of lots to build new single family homes is not going to produce the sort of growth that, say, mid/highrise sites would

2)....if there is available single family sites that produce net new population they are not likely to be downtown near the two GO stations....any new home building of sfd in downtown Hamilton would be replacing existing homes with newer homes...no?

As for people moving to Hamilton...yes there has been lots of talk/anecdotes about people moving to the Hammer because of the lovely, large single family dwellings that can be had for cheaper than anywhere in the GTA (even lower, I hear than my poor old home town of Brampton)....but that has been going on for a while yet it has produced pretty anemic growth rates.....suggesting, to me, that those people moving into Hamilton to take advantage of those lower prices have, in large, just been replacing people who are leaving Hamilton for whatever reason.

Certainly good points. This page from the Ontario Chamber of Commerce pegs 2012 - 2014 growth at 0.7 - 0.8% per year and estimates 0.7% growth in 2015. In comparison, I believe the 2013 growth rate in Toronto was something like 1.5% (not sure what 2014 was like).

In regards to the new people simply replacing existing people in single-family units, that is definitely a good point, but I believe part of the theory (and again, this is just taken from newspaper articles and I can't think of any actual studies on the topic) is that young people (who are about to start families) are starting to replace older people that no longer have children residing with them.

Although if you look at the Outlook provided by the Ontario Chamber of Commerce, it shows that intraprovincial immigration just slightly edges out international immigration for adding people to Hamilton's population. What would be really interesting would be data on the age of these people immigrating to the city.
 
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Certainly good points. This page from the Ontario Chamber of Commerce pegs the growth at 0.7% in 2014 and estimates 1% growth in 2015. In comparison, I believe the 2013 growth rate in Toronto was something like 1.5% (not sure what 2014 was like).

I was actually thinking of it in comparison to some 905 communities that are seeing +/- 4-5% annual growth....but even if you compare it to Toronto 1.5% of 2.6mil is a significantly larger amount of people than .7-1% of 520k.

In regards to the new people simply replacing existing people in single-family units, that is definitely a good point, but I believe part of the theory (and again, this is just taken from newspaper articles and I can't think of any actual studies on the topic) is that young people (who are about to start families) are starting to replace older people that no longer have children residing with them.

So we are counting on some sort of Hamilton specific echo boom in, what, 5 - 10 years?
 

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