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I was actually thinking of it in comparison to some 905 communities that are seeing +/- 4-5% annual growth....but even if you compare it to Toronto 1.5% of 2.6mil is a significantly larger amount of people than .7-1% of 520k.
Sorry, I edited my post as I had quoted some of the wrong numbers (it's late, apologies!)

No question. I'm not trying to make any claims that Hamilton is some sort of growth monster. It definitely has had a lot of localized problems that have prevented it from growing at the same pace as the rest of the GTA. I do, however, think that housing market pressure is slowly changing this and it is likely going to start seeing higher percentages of population growth.

So we are counting on some sort of Hamilton specific echo boom in, what, 5 - 10 years?
I'm not counting on anything. Huh?
 
I'll help you out....better comparison (although not perfect) would be Mississauga....Toronto has multiple stations precisely because of those multiple routes carrying people to Toronto.....mississauga has multiple stations on 3 different routes to Toronto ...still not precisely analogous to Hamilton (can't think of any city where one GO line is split into spurs in a city)
The Georgetown Corridor has many spurs (Milton, Barrie, Kitchener, UPX, and possibly Eglinton later). The only difference is that the spurring occurs at Aldershot (suburb) rather than downtown Hamilton. Whereas for Toronto, Union spurs out as a central hub, like a star. Alas, it would have been nice if CN and CP designed their rail networks so that things spur out from downtown Hamilton rather than one station before Hamilton. But we're stuck with it, so we have to handle this spur system. Another way to view this is a star with three routes from Aldershot, versus a star with seven routes from Union. If only Aldershot was the actual Hamilton CBD, or that the spurs emanate from Hamilton downtown GO...
 
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I'm still skeptical about the case for a Confederation GO station.

It will be substantially faster to drive across the skyway and find a parking space at Burlington than taking the train the long way around the harbour.

I sure hope GO doesn't relocate the Niagara Falls GO bus connection to Confederation.
 
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I'm still skeptical about the case for a Confederation GO station.

It will be substantially faster to drive across the skyway and find a parking space at Burlington than taking the train the long way around the harbour.
Not necessarily. At 8:00am in the morning typical rush hour one day, it took 25 minutes to drive from the rail underpass (near proposed Confederation GO station) to the parking lot in Burlington GO station. Add 5 minutes navigating a parking spot and walking to the GO train berth at Burlington, and you've wasted 30 minutes bypassing Confederation GO station.

If you knew the train was arriving in only 5 minutes at Confederation, and can pull up to a parking spot really close to boarding and be on the train 30 seconds after parking, and relax for 25 minutes in the "looparound" (which will likely become faster through future upgrades such as the extra Metrolinx-dedicated track they want to lay). You could drive over the Skyway if you knew you missed the Confederation GO train, so there is a little bit of flexibility to just go ahead and go over Skyway.

Also remember dreading the drive home over Skyway after returning to Burlington GO. Relaxing on the train all the way to Confederation GO is a lot more appealing on Friday evenings, since the Skyway is often incredibly gridlocked on Friday evenings (when adding on the weekend getawayers). So that can contribute to feeling like preemptively leaving the car behind at Confederation GO. You could take Eastport Drive, which is sometimes faster than the Skyway, until you become unlucky and the drawbridge is up. Altogether, not an appealing prospect for a relaxing commute home.

The Confederation GO station cost only $35 million. The $150M quote is just for extra parallel trackage which may actually speed up the service, allowing GO trains to blast ahead at full speed all the way to James North, with no contention with freight trains. This may very well make GO end up eventually faster than peak-hour Skyway, rather than breaking even. It is being designed in a way that there are no crossovers nor freight train contention between JameNorth (West Harbour) and Confederation GO, and it's a darn straight arrow, so you could steam at up to 90mph given precedent on other sections of Lakeshore West. The freight contention would only occur between Aldershot and JamesNorth, though Metrolinx is going to start a study about adding an extra track around the bend, which will help reduce contention outside of the crossover (Hamilton Junction...). The rail-to-rail grade separation there is only a dream.

I sure hope GO doesn't relocate the Niagara Falls GO bus connection to Confederation after .
That, I agree -- at least until the rail corridor is sped up (i.e. after the theoretical rail-to-rail grade separation at Hamilton Junction, and the ability to race trains around the bend faster than driving GO bus over Skyway). Which won't be for more than a decade...
 
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I'm still skeptical about the case for a Confederation GO station.

It will be substantially faster to drive across the skyway and find a parking space at Burlington than taking the train the long way around the harbour.

I sure hope GO doesn't relocate the Niagara Falls GO bus connection to Confederation.

It will never make sense to commute from Stoney Creek or Grimsby to Toronto only by train. It's considerably shorter by car than it is by train, even factoring traffic.

Where the station at Confederation will make sense, however, is if/when the service is pushed out towards St Catharines. Highway access from the east is poor into downtown Hamilton, and that is where the train can really come into its own - even assuming no major improvements to the corridor.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
 
It will never make sense to commute from Stoney Creek or Grimsby to Toronto only by train. It's considerably shorter by car than it is by train, even factoring traffic.
Grimsby to Toronto by train is 75 minutes. I wouldn't want to do that every day, but there are people doing worse than that now.

But considerably shorter by car? I've driven that run, and seen congestion getting to the Gardiner. Congestion on the Gardiner. Congestion on QEW in Mississauga. Congestion on the QEW in Oakville, and then congestion on the QEW between Hamilton and Grimsby. It's about a 50-minute drive with no traffic.

I can easily believe it could take longer than 75 minutes many days - if not in an average peak-hour commute! And even if it can be done in 60 minutes, I'd sooner 75 minutes on a train, than 60 minutes driving - particularly if I have to figure out what to do with my car when I arrive!

Though hopefully you'll start seeing service that would allow people to commute from Grimsby to Hamilton itself.
 
I drove from Square One to downtown Hamilton during the afternoon rush a few weeks ago for their food truck festival. It took us over an hour because of all the traffic. There's no way in hell that Stoney Creek to Union can be done in under 75 minutes during rush hour.
 
I drove from Square One to downtown Hamilton during the afternoon rush a few weeks ago for their food truck festival. It took us over an hour because of all the traffic. There's no way in hell that Stoney Creek to Union can be done in under 75 minutes during rush hour.
It is very likely to take longer than 50 minutes. Sometimes it takes me 50 minutes to drive from Oakville/Burlington to Etobicoke.

Even if you look at Google Maps and plug in directions from Stoney Creek to Toronto Union Station, departing at 07:30 or 08:00 AM, you get a time variance of 50 minutes to 2.5 hours.
 
The Confederation GO station cost only $35 million. The $150M quote is just for extra parallel trackage which may actually speed up the service, allowing GO trains to blast ahead at full speed all the way to James North, with no contention with freight trains. This may very well make GO end up eventually faster than peak-hour Skyway, rather than breaking even. It is being designed in a way that there are no crossovers nor freight train contention between JameNorth (West Harbour) and Confederation GO, and it's a darn straight arrow, so you could steam at up to 90mph given precedent on other sections of Lakeshore West. The freight contention would only occur between Aldershot and JamesNorth, though Metrolinx is going to start a study about adding an extra track around the bend, which will help reduce contention outside of the crossover (Hamilton Junction...). The rail-to-rail grade separation there is only a dream.


That, I agree -- at least until the rail corridor is sped up (i.e. after the theoretical rail-to-rail grade separation at Hamilton Junction, and the ability to race trains around the bend faster than driving GO bus over Skyway). Which won't be for more than a decade...

$150M to build the extra track from James North. Rail to Rail separation at Hamilton Junction. Expectation of future track requirements from Aldershot to James North. 15 km longer than the straight along the Skyway.

My post a while back about re-purposing the ROW from Burlington GO to Confederation GO along the Beach may not be far-fetched compared to these costs (even if you did elevate it instead of a lift bridge...the cost would be similar to the UPX spur cost for the bridge...$130M)
 
Have any viability studies been done in respect of extending GO east of Hunter Street to a suburban/east Hamilton terminus? I remember reading a CN vs CP comparison in respect of a Niagara extension which said the CP line as a whole would take a lot of capex to get it to useful speed/capacity but I was thinking more of a single stop with P+R plus storage tracks using the same number of consists given the tunnel constraint. I guess it might be seen as cannibalising Confederation GO traffic now since that seems to be being greenlighted to shove Hamilton Council over the LRT finish line.
 
Have any viability studies been done in respect of extending GO east of Hunter Street to a suburban/east Hamilton terminus? I remember reading a CN vs CP comparison in respect of a Niagara extension which said the CP line as a whole would take a lot of capex to get it to useful speed/capacity but I was thinking more of a single stop with P+R plus storage tracks using the same number of consists given the tunnel constraint. I guess it might be seen as cannibalising Confederation GO traffic now since that seems to be being greenlighted to shove Hamilton Council over the LRT finish line.

It would help reduce duplication but:

- The tunnel is only a single track
- It's super-difficult to add extra trackage even in the single-track trench (you could trenchwall, but...)
- The corridor is owned by CP which has historically been harder to negotiate with than CN.
- Metrolinx successfully purchased way more trackage from CN
- West Harbour (JamesNorth) is on a very long, straight-arrow CN corridor with plenty of ROW for two more extra tracks along a lot of its route.
- West Harbour (JamesNorth) is a faster and straighter eventual route to Niagara Falls
- The CN corridor is almost a perfect straight HSR-capable arrow almost all the way to Niagara Falls and has room for 4-tracks without residential expropriation (2 tracks used, protected space for 2 more tracks).

It would be stupendously expensive to find a way to get frequent Niagara service through Hunter station, since we'd need to end up triple-tracking the tunnel (one CP track, two Metrolinx tracks) and expropriate a lot of houses for two-way service. Also, who knows, they may be intending to electricify the CN corridor in the next twenty or thirty years -- a good theoretical connector for a theoretical Acela Empire Express service that New York State keeps occasionally talking about (high speed trains to New York City by 2050, anyone?).

The CN corridor that JamesNorth/Confederation GO will use, is a wider and straight arrow corridor capable in theory of sustaining 300kph+ HSR speeds all the way to Welland Canal (near Niagara Falls) if fully grade separated, track separate of CN, electricified, and with rail rated for speed is installed. There is only one faint bend. A super tiny 3-degree Grimsby bend -- so slight that high speed trains can breeze through that curve at 300kph -- especially if further rounding the curve as there's farmland inside the curve to allow further straightening to massively increase of the turning radius to 300kph-compatibility with no braking. That 3-degree curve is the only curve between Hamilton Junction and Welland Canal! It's ruler-straight other than that! Almost perfect straight A to B. It could someday let 300kph between the Hamiltion Junction (west Hamilton) all the way PAST St. Catharines with full 300kph future capability theoretically achievable without expropriation or stealing track from CN -- that's how damn straight the CN railroad is! So even if it won't happen till 2050-2100, it is a wide four-trackable corridor worth protecting for future HSR. Almost no residential expropriation needed to add four tracks all the way to St. Catharines (even through Grimbsy and St. Catharines, there is reserved space for four track corridor). It only currently has two tracks -- just begging for two additional Metrolinx-specific tracks if we negotiate well with CN -- in a corridor capable of full 300kph acceleration someday next century! Welland canal is another story, but who knows, within 100 years, we might finally do the $1bn canal grade separation tunnel. *this* is the Niagara corridor we want to use; it's a straight arrow without the looping CP curves. So, why bother trying to go to Niagara Falls via the curvy CP routing? Given we'll have to do lots more expropriation anyway, on top of that to boot? There is really no contest that the shortest way between A and B is a straight line (short of building a tunnel under Lake Ontario to Toronto). Yes, HSR is a pie in the sky for this corridor right now -- but I am just saying all of this to merely pointing out that this corridor straightness and corridor space is so vastly superior to the CP routing via Hunter. St. Catharines residents won't want to take 3 hours by train via the CP corridor when the straight-arrow CN corridor allows 2 hours via plain GOtrains.

Note: At the same time, I realize HSR to Niagara is a longshot. When HSR happens, it will be either Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal or the London-Kitchener-Toronto that will be first, probably 2030s. However, Toronto-Hamilton-Niagara highspeed is probably more viable in Year 2050+ than Windsor or Quebec City, especially if Empire Corridor gets an Acela Express to New York City someday, and the attractive (to Metrolinx for high speed GOtrains) pursuit for 1-hour Niagara commute for our grandkids' children. The straight arrow is over 50 kilometers; a HSR train only needs 15km to accelerate to 300kph.

Now, you're right... Throwing enough money, it would be possible to extend past Hunter, and make it the main route to Niagara area, but it would be so stupendously expensive given the single track at the bottom of a trench followed by a single track tunnel, then beyond is a difficult housing expropriation situation (or expensive CP appeasement by building a new CP corridor for CP) as it squeezes through tight corridors beyond in a much more winding route than the CN route, and bring people to Toronto much more slowly than the virtually ruler-straight CN corridor.
 
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