Allandale25
Senior Member
^ helpful thanks. I didn't realize the bridge over Eglinton Ave bwas part of what would be needed for the 4th track. Good to know.
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- Thread starter drum118
- Start date
ack
New Member
Are there plans to modify Strachan or Bathurst to let UP use the flyunder in both directions? Can't see them doing 15-minute Kitchener service without that, no matter how much track they add north of there.
ShonTron
Moderator
crs1026
Superstar
I don't have an official source document to cite - I doubt there is a firm ready-to-tender "final plan" quite yet - but the past documents that ML has put out dealing with the future layout of the USRC and platform capacity issues have pointed to run-through services as a big part of the solution.
In that configuration, one would expect to see more pairs of tracks that run through the depot without necessarily having universal connection to every platform or every other line. A 15-minute Kitchener service might simply run through to become a 15-minute Mount Joy service. Similarly, one might expect the Lakeshore route to be moved to the south side of the USRC, and simply be two tracks and the southmost two platforms. (OK, maybe four platforms, for redundancy and peak boarding).
Think of it as multiple carbon copies of the current Line 1 subway, all converging on one hub but being operationally discrete.
There would be some crossovers and a track ladder, and some paths will be interleaved, sure, but the whole idea is to get away from the traditional "one plant with an infinite number of routings" towards separate track 'paths' and dedicated platforms so that movements don't cross over in front of each other.
So, for UPE and/or Expanded GO to Kitchener, I can't see how a new flyover or even new tracks can be assumed. There's lots of capacity to route one direction on that single northmost through track, and route the other direction through the current flyover.
- Paul
In that configuration, one would expect to see more pairs of tracks that run through the depot without necessarily having universal connection to every platform or every other line. A 15-minute Kitchener service might simply run through to become a 15-minute Mount Joy service. Similarly, one might expect the Lakeshore route to be moved to the south side of the USRC, and simply be two tracks and the southmost two platforms. (OK, maybe four platforms, for redundancy and peak boarding).
Think of it as multiple carbon copies of the current Line 1 subway, all converging on one hub but being operationally discrete.
There would be some crossovers and a track ladder, and some paths will be interleaved, sure, but the whole idea is to get away from the traditional "one plant with an infinite number of routings" towards separate track 'paths' and dedicated platforms so that movements don't cross over in front of each other.
So, for UPE and/or Expanded GO to Kitchener, I can't see how a new flyover or even new tracks can be assumed. There's lots of capacity to route one direction on that single northmost through track, and route the other direction through the current flyover.
- Paul
cbrown2009
Active Member
I would have assumed that run throughs, separate pathing and minimal crossovers had to be a part of any service expansion plans for Union. They shouldn’t need any more fly unders anywhere. Just lay track using the right patterns. And (imho), they should have started with the 5/6 tracks in the Kitchener corridor up to the Barrie Line split, while working their way west with first underlying works, then track, as they also built the new 401/409 tunnel and Mount Dennis station. How they’re doing this so piecemeal boggles my mind so much I have to believe I’m missing something...
smallspy
Senior Member
Those are the older plans. The more-current ones still call for double-berthing of trains on the longest tracks in the middle of the trainshed. (And this seems to have progressed to the most-current ones, where they talk of stub-ending several tracks.) It seems contrary, but under the current TC rules turning trains back allows for a higher throughput on each track than running them through.
Dan
Allandale25
Senior Member
^ Given I think I've seen some work being done on the longest platforms, do you think they'll start doing this in 2019?
drum118
Superstar
Some of the so call piecemeal is due to lack of funds or being unused for a long time.
Weston Sub
There is no need for a fly under for UPX in the corridor, as there are enough crossover to deal with it and other services. UPX would use tracks 3 & 4, with shifting to one track as require.
As it stands today, all crossover blocks are 4 track with a few areas of 4 tracks between them. From the crossover north of the Humber River to just north of Weston Station, it was 4th track last year.
Waiting for the new platform for Weston to be built before the 4th track can be install.
From Weston to Eglinton, it ready for the 4th track and haven't look at it to see if has been installed.
CP has been using the 4th track at Eglinton while a new bridge was being built for it to deal with the new GO Station there. The bridge is done and track should be installed on it as well proving a connection to Metrolinx Mount Denise Yard.
From Eglinton to West Toronto Fly under, it ready for the 4th track. Until St Clair Overpass is rebuilt for it, as well building the new GO Station there, the track can go in temporary on it.
To put in the 4th track from Weston Station West Toronto Fly under wouldn't take long, since it ready for it now, other than building the Eglinton station. From the West Toronto fly under to Bloor requires moving the RailPath to the east, new tunnels/entrance, shifting the bridge over Bloor St. From Bloor to Bathurst is ready for the 4th track as well the other lines.
From the crossover on the north side of the Humber to 401, have to wait while the tunnel under the 401/409 is built and currently underway that hard to see. From 401/409, enough room for 5 tracks to the airport cut off to the point you could move UPX to the west 2 track where it become 2 from the current one.
As for Etobicoke North Station, the current track 4 is used by CN to service the industries at Islington and Rexdale, but no idea how much traffic it sees these days since a number of business have relocated from there. CN does (Did) have a daytime local to service the area around noon that blocks access to the platform. That track will connect to the new track from the new tunnel.
From Etobicoke North to east of Torbram Rd, no idea if the 4th track is in place other than the stations and crossover.
Torbram Rd
The new 3 track bridge is built with rails on it and being used. The south east retaining wall still has to be finish off. Shoring has to take place on the north side to start building the retaining wall and the northbound lanes before the southbound lanes and retaining wall can be built. This will not be completed until 2020, with the closure of the current crossing late fall this year. No idea if the 4th track bridge will be built at this time, but would be wise to do so since the crossing block to the east/south is 4 track now.
Bramalea Station
Other than the new north tunnel in place and some work on the east platform, not much has taken place so far.
Looking at the Halton Sub, there is enough room to put in a 2nd GO track independent from the Halton Sub that would connect to the Weston Sub.
Halton Sub
From The station to east of Main St in Brampton, enough room for a 4th track to be put in and would require new bridges where require.
From The Orangeville Crossing to Georgetown, enough room for 4 tracks, but would require a new bridge over the Credit River.
Georgetown
I would shift 2 CN tracks south that would end up in front of the VIA station and build new centre platforms that would service both VIA and GO that would be using the Kitchener Line. Doing so would allow the current GO station to be rebuilt to handle 14 cars train that only can be done on a few tracks today. Need at least 2 tunnels to go under the corridor to service all platforms as well new elevators.
Weston Sub
There is no need for a fly under for UPX in the corridor, as there are enough crossover to deal with it and other services. UPX would use tracks 3 & 4, with shifting to one track as require.
As it stands today, all crossover blocks are 4 track with a few areas of 4 tracks between them. From the crossover north of the Humber River to just north of Weston Station, it was 4th track last year.
Waiting for the new platform for Weston to be built before the 4th track can be install.
From Weston to Eglinton, it ready for the 4th track and haven't look at it to see if has been installed.
CP has been using the 4th track at Eglinton while a new bridge was being built for it to deal with the new GO Station there. The bridge is done and track should be installed on it as well proving a connection to Metrolinx Mount Denise Yard.
From Eglinton to West Toronto Fly under, it ready for the 4th track. Until St Clair Overpass is rebuilt for it, as well building the new GO Station there, the track can go in temporary on it.
To put in the 4th track from Weston Station West Toronto Fly under wouldn't take long, since it ready for it now, other than building the Eglinton station. From the West Toronto fly under to Bloor requires moving the RailPath to the east, new tunnels/entrance, shifting the bridge over Bloor St. From Bloor to Bathurst is ready for the 4th track as well the other lines.
From the crossover on the north side of the Humber to 401, have to wait while the tunnel under the 401/409 is built and currently underway that hard to see. From 401/409, enough room for 5 tracks to the airport cut off to the point you could move UPX to the west 2 track where it become 2 from the current one.
As for Etobicoke North Station, the current track 4 is used by CN to service the industries at Islington and Rexdale, but no idea how much traffic it sees these days since a number of business have relocated from there. CN does (Did) have a daytime local to service the area around noon that blocks access to the platform. That track will connect to the new track from the new tunnel.
From Etobicoke North to east of Torbram Rd, no idea if the 4th track is in place other than the stations and crossover.
Torbram Rd
The new 3 track bridge is built with rails on it and being used. The south east retaining wall still has to be finish off. Shoring has to take place on the north side to start building the retaining wall and the northbound lanes before the southbound lanes and retaining wall can be built. This will not be completed until 2020, with the closure of the current crossing late fall this year. No idea if the 4th track bridge will be built at this time, but would be wise to do so since the crossing block to the east/south is 4 track now.
Bramalea Station
Other than the new north tunnel in place and some work on the east platform, not much has taken place so far.
Looking at the Halton Sub, there is enough room to put in a 2nd GO track independent from the Halton Sub that would connect to the Weston Sub.
Halton Sub
From The station to east of Main St in Brampton, enough room for a 4th track to be put in and would require new bridges where require.
From The Orangeville Crossing to Georgetown, enough room for 4 tracks, but would require a new bridge over the Credit River.
Georgetown
I would shift 2 CN tracks south that would end up in front of the VIA station and build new centre platforms that would service both VIA and GO that would be using the Kitchener Line. Doing so would allow the current GO station to be rebuilt to handle 14 cars train that only can be done on a few tracks today. Need at least 2 tunnels to go under the corridor to service all platforms as well new elevators.
ack
New Member
What's odd to me is how the current schedule seems to go to pains to have this track change direction as often as possible (taking both UP outbound and GO inbound in the morning and the reverse in the afternoon). Does this have something to do with the rules you mention?
smallspy
Senior Member
Actually, they go through great pains NOT to change ends on the equipment at rush hours. Equipment stored at Don Yard will generally run through to the western lines, and equipment laid over at Bathurst North Yard will run through on the Lakeshore East, Stouffville and Richmond Hill lines.
The issue is this - with the way the station is currently set up, they can get about 6 trains through each track per hour. This is due to the length of the trains, the speeds they enter and exit the trainshed at, the length of the platform tracks and the time the trains take to occupy them. If they have to change ends, that drops to 4 trains an hour, as you now need to also factor in the amount of time necessary for the crew to walk the length of the train and set up the other end for departure.
By double-berthing trains on those longest tracks, they are able to double the throughput on trains that turn back - 2 times 4 trains per hour. That's why GO's always been so adamant about their ability to do that.
Dan
TOareaFan
Superstar
As I have said before, the piecemeal nature of this causes me no concern at all. Until they can get agreement with CN to let more track/trains into Bramlea....and run more trains between Bramalea and Georgetown.....adding the 4th track will have minimal impact on the service levels to the ticket buying customers.
Allandale25
Senior Member
TOareaFan
Superstar
maybe....but, today, I was commenting on the other comments about the piecemeal nature of the 4th track expansion...and that started long before this new world of CN agreeing to things (or so we have been told)....and I was saying (as I have before) since everything is gonna plug up at Bramalea anyway I am not sure what the concern is about the lack of 4th track or the slow laying of the 4th track.
Allandale25
Senior Member
^ I do see the point. Part of the reason I posted on Saturday about the 4th track was just out of general curiosity and if I missed any recent work taking place since I don't use the corridor each day. Totally get the point about access as it relates to the pace. Part of the reason for posting as well as to track (no pun intended stuff) and I found the highlighted items in Paul's list below interesting/newish to me/good reminders.
crs1026
Superstar
The CN deal is a prerequisite, certainly.... but if one doesn’t lay out all the prerequisite tasks, and figure out how to attack these in parallel to each other, 2025 will be here and we still won’t have improved service.
It is far too easy for everyone, ML included, to lose any sense of urgency because some other part of the plan can’t happen right away...so why rush the others? And then they realise they can’t do everything at once “just in time”, so something gets deferred....
And, it’s far too disfunctional to let politicians see these as incremental decisions. Somebody needs to lay out the whole plan: do this in 2019, and this by 2020, and this will fall into place in 2021.... and show them the whole price tag, so we don’t get foot dragging in year three because someone says “What? More money needed?”
Or, be honest and tell the public “look, we just aren’t doing this”.
- Paul
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