[cplchanb]

what a waste of resources given our tiny budget as it is...build the damn thing first and then discuss vanity projects

 

[Allandale25]

The MPP for Beaches-East York has released this statement in response to concerns for local residents along the Lakeshore East line:

MPP Potts Beaches-East York Statement on Metrolinx Lakeshore East Construction

July 18, 2017

On July 13ht [sic], a group of concerned citizens living in the general vicinity of Woodbine Ave. and Gerrard St. East met regarding Metrolinx’s planned expansion of the Lakeshore East and Stouffville GO Train service and infrastructure that runs through our neighbourhood of Beaches-East York.

Further to the discussions that MPP Arthur Potts had with Metrolinx staff, concerned constituents and community leaders he has prepared the following statement:

QUOTES

“The expansion of GO service is a critical part of our government’s transit expansion plans - it will ensure thousands get to work and back home faster, and will help relieve congestion in our community and elsewhere in the City of Toronto. However, this expansion needs to balance the greater good with important local questions about noise and safety. As the MPP for Beaches-East York I stand firmly with my constituents and commit to working with Metrolinx to achieve a solution
to my neighbours’ concerns.

In particular, we need to work together to
A) ensure Metrolinx works towards reducing the 4.5 decibels of sound that is expected after the completion of the rail line;
B) ensure Metrolinx re-examines the feasibility of seven-meter-high sound barrier walls, as opposed to the intended five-meter-high walls (or no walls) currently planned; and
C) ensure Metrolinx commits to better vibration mitigation from the new rail line so the increased rail traffic does not have any significant effect on the surrounding homes. These are not unreasonable requests, and I would not be surprised if similar circumstances exist along other sections of the GO corridors. I appreciate the commitment Metrolinx has demonstrated already in listening to my community, and I look forward to a productive and open dialogue moving forward.”

— Arthur Potts, MPP, Beaches-East York

LINKS

Lakeshore East Rail Corridor Expansion Don River to Scarborough Station GO Service Expansion
http://www.metrolinx.com/en/regionalplanning/rer/20170530_LSE1-PM2_DisplayBoards_EN.pdf

For more information, or to be connected to representatives at the parties mentioned above, please contact:
Steven Crombie | Legislative Assistant
Office of MPP Arthur Potts, MPP Beaches-East York
Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of the Environment and Climate Change
C: (416) 525-8289
E-Mail: scrombie@liberal.ola.org
Website: http://arthurpotts.onmpp.ca/

 

[dowlingm]

If there are seven meter high walls how am I gonna be able to watch trains pass while my kid is in Coxwell Parkette, like I did this morning?

 

[cplchanb]

If there are seven meter high walls how am I gonna be able to watch trains pass while my kid is in Coxwell Parkette, like I did this morning?

depending on what the wall is made of it may be possible. The clear walls that are currently used can be the solution to that. At least this MPP is trying to quell those radical nimbys. the points that were
listed out are pretty reasonable

 

[steveintoronto]

A) ensure Metrolinx works towards reducing the 4.5 decibels of sound that is expected after the completion of the rail line;

This is either a glaringly bad typo or just a complete nonsense. Decibels have to be expressed in relative context to mean anything, and in either of the two commonly used, that figure is almost inconsequential,

In a sound pressure context, the smallest gradation a human can perceive is 3db. Something is wildly wrong with the figure as published.

 

[steveintoronto]

If there are seven meter high walls how am I gonna be able to watch trains pass while my kid is in Coxwell Parkette, like I did this morning?

It's amazing what trains mean to different people. I just can't avoid looking at one when it goes past. Others just wish they'd go away. The most curious are Yuppies. They want them to get to work, right down the street, but not too close.
(Massive Caveat! Not chemical freights just down the street, I'm talking passenger trains)

 

[Allandale25]

And the associated article that was just posted: http://www.beachmetro.com/2017/07/18/residents-seek-solution-rail-corridor-noise-concerns/

The MPP for Beaches-East York has released this statement in response to concerns for local residents along the Lakeshore East line:

 

[cplchanb]

This is either a glaringly bad typo or just a complete nonsense. Decibels have to be expressed in relative context to mean anything, and in either of the two commonly used, that figure is almost inconsequential,

In a sound pressure context, the smallest gradation a human can perceive is 3db. Something is wildly wrong with the figure as published.

shhhh....dont tell the group that 4.5db is virtually nothing....

 

[steveintoronto]

shhhh....dont tell the group that 4.5db is virtually nothing....

But if I'm any quieter, they won't be able to hear when I tell them that. Self fulfilling fantasy...or philosophy?

 

[jamincan]

I'm pretty sure they mean a 4.5db increase, which is about 37% louder.

 

[crs1026]

This is a good time to review what Davenport residents were told about noise back in 2016. One would look for consistency betweeen the ML report from that noise study and what LSE residents are told. Back at the Davenport public meeting, the noise study presenter guy actually got a favourable reception.... once it was obvious that he was a technical guy who wasn't following the "spin" script for the meeting. We'll see if the noise experts for LSE have been given more spin training in the meanwhile.

- Paul

 

[steveintoronto]

I'm pretty sure they mean a 4.5db increase, which is about 37% louder.

dB what? SPL? They've got to state that for it to mean anything. And without a reference to what the increase is relative to, it's even more meaningless.

Someone spoke in a generality of reference, someone else quoted them not realizing that it was missing the reference, and now it appears as bad PR.

And btw: *Technically* prior I also stated a generality: "3dB SPL change is the smallest change the human ear can perceive". Even that is a generality, it all depends on what *curve* that is referred to. I won't get too technical save to say someone had better get this straight, or exactly as...well, now I read his post, 1026 has nailed it:

One would look for consistency betweeen the ML report from that noise study and what LSE residents are told. Back at the Davenport public meeting, the noise study presenter guy actually got a favourable reception.... once it was obvious that he was a technical guy who wasn't following the "spin" script for the meeting. We'll see if the noise experts for LSE have been given more spin training in the meanwhile.

It is *crucial* to get this right, as I believe electric stock will reduce both noise and vibration (audible and infrasonic sound) markedly. By *multiples* if not magnitudes. (And dB lacks understanding by non-technicals, it's a ratio logarithm, only really of value when putting ratios in a rational context that doesn't boggle the mind, and makes them additive and subtractive in circuit measurements, including Sound Pressure )

And the locals should be welcoming the sound reduction. How quiet? *Quieter* than the subways going past Hillcrest Station. And that's how it's got to be put to the public.

The difference is almost like telling them "we're paralleling the runways at the airport for even bigger planes to land and more often". Forgetting to mention that they'll be electric motor planes, almost as quiet as gliders save for the woosh...

 

[Platform 27]

I believe electric stock will reduce both noise and vibration (audible and infrasonic sound) markedly. By *multiples* if not magnitudes.

[...]

And the locals should be welcoming the sound reduction. How quiet? *Quieter* than the subways going past Hillcrest Station. And that's how it's got to be put to the public.

The difference is almost like telling them "we're paralleling the runways at the airport for even bigger planes to land and more often". Forgetting to mention that they'll be electric motor planes, almost as quiet as gliders save for the woosh...

I'm sorry, you can "believe" what you want in your own little universe, but you can't ask anyone else to accept that codswollop.

This has been looked at by professionals. There are quite literally hundreds of pages of reports generated on this question over the past 10 years. Electric GO trains will not glide softly as a cloud. Each individual train pass will be somewhat quieter than the status quo, most noticeably when accelerating out of stations. Some noise will shift from the top of the consist to below floor level, which will help in a lot of contexts.

But the majority of noise and vibration from a train going by these NIMBYs at full speed is a product of several hundred tonnes of steel, balanced on steel wheels, rolling at 100 km/h over steel tracks with various curves and dips and switches. And so it doesn't matter if the train is powered by diesel or hydrogen or electric catenary or unicorn farts, it's going to create noise and vibration. And more noise and vibration than "subways going past Hillcrest station", whatever you mean by that.

 

[steveintoronto]

I'm sorry, you can "believe" what you want in your own little universe, but you can't ask anyone else to accept that 'codswollop'. (sic)

This has been looked at by professionals. There are quite literally hundreds of pages of reports generated on this question over the past 10 years.

From glancing through those reports, EMUs will be as quiet as the present DMUs on UPX, which are considerably quieter than Diesel loco hauled.

http://www.gotransit.com/electrification/en/Appendix F_UPExpressElecEA_NoiseVibrationAssessRpt_Final.pdf

Since the time of that report, EMUs have improved further in noise signature. How do you eat your codswallop, or do you drink it? I'll detail further later when I've had time to thoroughly analyze the reports.

I take it then that by your reasoning, the Weston Community associations are full of "codswallop" in pressing for electric instead of diesel?

http://www.gotransit.com/electrification/en/docs/Electrification TPAP Consultation FAQs EN.pdf

http://www.gotransit.com/electrification/en/project_history/Appendix Files/Appendix 8E.pdf

(Caveat: That's for electric loco v. diesel loco hauled trains @ 150 km/h. That's 94 mph, highly unlikely for RER EMUs. The bulk of the noise level generated is mechanical, thus an un-linear comparison to propulsion noise at slower speeds, which will be much more in favour or electric, and even more in favour of EMUs. I'm struck by how far GO biases the outcome to downplay the sentiments of the Weston pro-electric and other sources (many in the world, with actual as well as theoretical results) clearly showing the considerably reduced noise and vibration signature for electric, especially EMU, let alone the cleaner air)

Entering "Clean Train Coalition" into Google shows many different orgs in the developed world, my intention was to pursue what the Weston one was stating on noise and vibration, but I see there's a Junction one, a Sorauren one and others in Toronto, let alone ones elsewhere. Not surprisingly, they ALL mention "quieter and less vibration" as features of electrification.

Lots of "codswollop" (sic) eaters in the "universe"...I'll get back to this line of discussion when someone posts a more technically apt argument based on neutral sourced research that lends itself to more objective analysis.

Edit to Add: Excellent much more technically savvy, neutral and detailed report on the subject from Caltrain, 160 pages, specifically on the subject being discussed here, and done by a highly reputable and independent company:

Pg 66, http://www.caltrain.com/Assets/Caltrain+Modernization+Program/DEIR/Appendix+C+Noise+Study.pdf

Note the EMU spl per speed curve above.

I highly recommend this report and deep analysis for anyone who considers themselves seriously concerned on the topic.

 

[Platform 27]

Since the time of that report, EMUs have improved further in noise signature.

What I find fascinating about this poster is their default argumentation style appears to be aggressive Googling and copy-pasta, which gums up the thread, but then even after the thousands of words they just discovered are waded through there's still no basis for the crazily bold claims they advance.

Nothing has happened to EMU technology in the last five years that magically makes them "multiples, if not magnitudes" quieter than DMUs, diesel locos, etc. You are engaged in faith based debate.

I take it then that by your reasoning, the Weston Community associations are full of "codswallop" in pressing for electric instead of diesel?

I think it's well understood by anyone that's semi-intelligently followed Toronto transit debates over the past decade that the Weston Community Coalition are amongst the region's finest purveyors of high-grade artisinal codswollop.

I'm struck by how far GO biases the outcome to downplay the sentiments of the Weston pro-electric and other sources (many in the world, with actual as well as theoretical results) clearly showing the considerably reduced noise and vibration signature for electric, especially EMU, let alone the cleaner air)

Entering "Clean Train Coalition" into Google shows many different orgs in the developed world, my intention was to pursue what the Weston one was stating on noise and vibration, but I see there's a Junction one, a Sorauren one and others in Toronto, let alone ones elsewhere. Not surprisingly, they ALL mention "quieter and less vibration" as features of electrification.

Lots of "codswollop" (sic) eaters in the "universe"...I'll get back to this line of discussion when someone posts a more technically apt argument based on neutral sourced research that lends itself to more objective analysis.

So let me get this right, you're calling noise and vibration technical reports written by professional acoustic engineers "biased" but the various claims advanced by the Weston NIMBYs, the Junction NIMBYs and Sorauren NIMBYs are more credible because all three of them agreed that electrification would be amazing?