[Bojaxs]

Is there not more than enough room for both? The ROW is huge. I know utilities occupy a lot of it, but still.

The two areas where I would imagine there wouldn't be much room for more than 2-3 tracks running parallel to the 407 are;

a) Kennedy Rd & 407, Hurontario LRT train storage yard

b) Bramalea & 407, Magna auto parts plant and waste incineration plant

Everything else, such as the cricket fields, can easily be moved.

 

[crs1026]

Note to self: time to do some research into the dates when ML first told the public - and the Legislature - that they had begun negotiating with CN over the Kitchener line upgrade.

- Paul

After some poking around in a rabbit hole, here is an Update - a little scanning of old ML Board Meeting minutes reveals that

CN and ML signed an agreement in principle to pursue the ill-fated freight bypass in August 2016

In 2017-2018, ML made a lot of noise about its ongoing negotiations with CN for the Bypass, and did a lot of study, One media report here.

In March 2019, Phil Verster held a town hall in Kitchener in which he reported positive progress in negotiations with CN

In November 2019, ML approved a new IBC for the project, which declared a preference for a negotiated upgrade of the Halton Sub in preference to the Bypass. There was a fair bit of local press referring to such negotiations eg here.

In September 2020, Verster's success in negotiations with CP/CN was cited in justifying a raise in his salary.

In March 2021, ML released a second IBC dealing with the Silver Flyover.

And here we sit, in 2024.

While some work seems to be starting to add a third track through Brampton, I am not aware of any formal announcement of actual agreements being reached with CN about this, or about improvements in the Norval-Silver section of the route.

Those who do not study history are doomed to wait for a train that has yet to arrive.

- Paul

 

[Allandale25]

After some poking around in a rabbit hole, here is an Update - a little scanning of old ML Board Meeting minutes reveals that

CN and ML signed an agreement in principle to pursue the ill-fated freight bypass in August 2016

In 2017-2018, ML made a lot of noise about its ongoing negotiations with CN for the Bypass, and did a lot of study, One media report here.

In March 2019, Phil Verster held a town hall in Kitchener in which he reported positive progress in negotiations with CN

In November 2019, ML approved a new IBC for the project, which declared a preference for a negotiated upgrade of the Halton Sub in preference to the Bypass. There was a fair bit of local press referring to such negotiations eg here.

In September 2020, Verster's success in negotiations with CP/CN was cited in justifying a raise in his salary.

In March 2021, ML released a second IBC dealing with the Silver Flyover.

And here we sit, in 2024.

While some work seems to be starting to add a third track through Brampton, I am not aware of any formal announcement of actual agreements being reached with CN about this, or about improvements in the Norval-Silver section of the route.

Those who do not study history are doomed to wait for a train that has yet to arrive.

- Paul

Metrolinx initiated some expropriation around the Credit River for the rail separation but I'm not sure where that stands.

 

[Northern Light]

After some poking around in a rabbit hole, here is an Update - a little scanning of old ML Board Meeting minutes reveals that

CN and ML signed an agreement in principle to pursue the ill-fated freight bypass in August 2016

In 2017-2018, ML made a lot of noise about its ongoing negotiations with CN for the Bypass, and did a lot of study, One media report here.

In March 2019, Phil Verster held a town hall in Kitchener in which he reported positive progress in negotiations with CN

In November 2019, ML approved a new IBC for the project, which declared a preference for a negotiated upgrade of the Halton Sub in preference to the Bypass. There was a fair bit of local press referring to such negotiations eg here.

In September 2020, Verster's success in negotiations with CP/CN was cited in justifying a raise in his salary.

In March 2021, ML released a second IBC dealing with the Silver Flyover.

And here we sit, in 2024.

While some work seems to be starting to add a third track through Brampton, I am not aware of any formal announcement of actual agreements being reached with CN about this, or about improvements in the Norval-Silver section of the route.

Those who do not study history are doomed to wait for a train that has yet to arrive.

- Paul

Excellent work Paul; my sincere applause!

 

[allengeorge]

In March 2021, ML released a second IBC dealing with the Silver Flyover.

And here we sit, in 2024.

That’s truly upsetting. So, despite a lot of jaw-jaw and some preliminary work, nothing concrete has happened.

A concrete example of your perennial complaint that Metrolinx doesn’t align projects so that they actually deliver the stated value (since for GO the effects substantially come into play when all the projects are completed.)

 

[gweed123]

The two areas where I would imagine there wouldn't be much room for more than 2-3 tracks running parallel to the 407 are;

a) Kennedy Rd & 407, Hurontario LRT train storage yard

b) Bramalea & 407, Magna auto parts plant and waste incineration plant

Everything else, such as the cricket fields, can easily be moved.

Bramalea and 407 would likely require tunnelling of the GO tracks anyway in order to provide a better connection with Bramalea GO. In all likelihood, the GO corridor would veer north along the 410, then veer east under Steeles. It would then continue under Steeles until it rejoined the 407 corridor east of Torbram. The bypass corridor would stay along the 407 corridor and connect directly with the York Sub.

East of Hurontario would be a pinch for sure though.

 

[sixrings]

Bramalea and 407 would likely require tunnelling of the GO tracks anyway in order to provide a better connection with Bramalea GO. In all likelihood, the GO corridor would veer north along the 410, then veer east under Steeles. It would then continue under Steeles until it rejoined the 407 corridor east of Torbram. The bypass corridor would stay along the 407 corridor and connect directly with the York Sub.

East of Hurontario would be a pinch for sure though.

can I get a map of this theoretical Ontario line west plan.... I can't imagine it in my head and although im new out west some of these names make it hard to picture.

 

[gweed123]

can I get a map of this theoretical Ontario line west plan.... I can't imagine it in my head and although im new out west some of these names make it hard to picture.

Working on one, haha. This wouldn't be part of the OL West though. That line would supplant the Milton Line up until Lisgar GO.

This particular stretch of line would be used by a future 'perimeter' line. GO service to Milton would use the existing Milton Line tracks from Milton to Lisgar, and then would use this new corridor along the 407 until Bramalea. At Bramalea, Milton Line service would join the Kitchener Line corridor to access downtown Toronto. The perimeter line would continue east along the 407 ROW across York Region and potentially into Durham Region.

 

[Metroscapes]

That’s truly upsetting. So, despite a lot of jaw-jaw and some preliminary work, nothing concrete has happened.

Just look at how long a mainline platform Georgetown GO has been talked about, with no action. Or the decade it took to get a proper switch in for Silver, that wasn't on a superelevated curve and requiring GO trains to crawl through it at 5 mph. I have little faith that a flyover's gonna move fast.

 

[Allandale25]

Ontario Newsroom

news.ontario.ca

Emphasis added.

MISSISSAUGA — While speaking at the Mississauga Board of Trade today, Premier Doug Ford confirmed the government’s plan to extend the Hazel McCallion Light Rail Transit (LRT) by building the Mississauga loop and bringing the line into downtown Brampton. Premier Ford also confirmed the Ontario government’s support to enhance GO train service along the Milton line with two-way all-day service and urged the federal government to be a full funding partner.
“Our government is investing more than $70 billion over the next decade to lead the largest expansion of public transit in North America, including across Peel and Milton regions,” said Premier Doug Ford. “Alongside Highway 413 and the Bradford Bypass, our government has a plan to move Peel and Milton regions’ people and economy forward.”

Ontario has accepted the initial business case for the expansion of the Hazel McCallion LRT and is moving forward with this important project. The LRT will include a four-kilometre extension of the line into downtown Brampton via Main Street from the Brampton Gateway Terminal and a two-kilometre extension with a loop in Mississauga. The loop will connect LRT service to Square One with additional stops through to Confederation Parkway. The LRT will provide one of Canada’s quickest-growing cities with faster, more frequent and more reliable transit than the existing bus service, travelling in an exclusive right-of-way with signal priority at intersections.

Ontario is also calling on the federal government to agree to a cost-sharing partnership that will deliver all-day, two-way GO rail service along the Milton GO rail corridor by building a fully separated passenger rail line. The Milton GO rail corridor is the fourth busiest line on the GO network and serves as a vital transit connection between Milton, Mississauga and the rest of the Greater Golden Horseshoe. That is why Ontario is also planning to reinstate train trips, improve stations with new customer amenities such as expanding the south parking lot and a pedestrian bridge at Milton GO station, and advance the planning and design work to support future two-way, all-day service.

“Everyone in Ontario deserves access to reliable transit options that connect them to good-paying jobs and housing," said Prabmeet Sarkaria, Minister of Transportation. “The extension of the Hazel McCallion LRT and Milton GO rail corridor are essential next steps in our mission to get commuters where they need to go, when they need to be there. We urge the federal government to share in the cost of this critical project in Milton to meet the growing needs of this region.”
Over the next decade, Ontario is investing $70.5 billion to transform public transit in the province, the largest transit investment in Canadian history.

 

[Northern Light]

Ontario Newsroom

news.ontario.ca

Emphasis added.

Glad to see the above, but would note, with amusement, that the previous Federal Transportation Minister publicly offered the Ford gov't a 50/50 partnership and 500M to upgrade Milton, which the Ford gov't ignored.

 

[Allandale25]

Glad to see the above, but would note, with amusement, that the previous Federal Transportation Minister publicly offered the Ford gov't a 50/50 partnership and 500M to upgrade Milton, which the Ford gov't ignored.

https://x.com/PrabSarkaria/status/1755623686063702261?t=HNNeGqWqRIehGWxbIWjcTA&s=08

 

[Northern Light]

https://x.com/PrabSarkaria/status/1755623686063702261?t=HNNeGqWqRIehGWxbIWjcTA&s=08

View attachment 539098
View attachment 539099

Hold on!

6.2B; for a line with no tunnels, no elevated structure except for bridges over roads; arguably no new rolling stock required, and only a smidge of land acquisition at one or two pinch points.

You must be kidding me!

Seriously, I won't throw around an accusation of grift without evidence but I'll be damned if I can think of any other explanation. That estimate better include a tunnel to Square One!

 

[rbt]

Hold on!

6.2B; for a line with no tunnels, no elevated structure except for bridges over roads; arguably no new rolling stock required, and only a smidge of land acquisition at one or two pinch points.

Do we have access to the Initial Business Case mentioned in this letter? I can't seem to find it.

We don't know the year those dollars are in. Perhaps it is a far future estimate, with a construction start after GO Expansion is largely complete?

Regarding land: I'd hope at that price it includes buying half the corridor from CP rather than a long-term lease.

 

[ARG1]

Hold on!

6.2B; for a line with no tunnels, no elevated structure except for bridges over roads; arguably no new rolling stock required, and only a smidge of land acquisition at one or two pinch points.

You must be kidding me!

Seriously, I won't throw around an accusation of grift without evidence but I'll be damned if I can think of any other explanation. That estimate better include a tunnel to Square One!

My only guess is is that the $6.2B number is assuming the "full separation of passenger and freight" involves building the Missing Link or something to that scale, which I believe had roughly a ~6B price tag iirc.