[denfromoakvillemilton]

Precisely.

As I've mentioned previously, about a half a dozen more engineers will be available shortly after the new years and hopefully another dozen more approx. one year from now. As of now I have no idea on how they plan on allocating them.

Hopefully Lakeshore so we can get 1/2 hourly service.

 

[TOareaFan]

Hopefully Lakeshore so we can get 1/2 hourly service.

Let's assume that at the end of the year the following conditions were met:

1. the passing track and signalization on the Barrie line were done and that, physically, it was ready for all day service
2. enough new crews were available to offer, either, 30 minute service on Lakeshore or that all day service on Barrie line.

You can only do one....which do you do?

 

[gweed123]

Hopefully Lakeshore so we can get 1/2 hourly service.

I think what needs to be done is an analysis of "if we only have X number of conductors and engineers for X number of trains, what's the optimal way of allocating them?"

Will allocating an extra 20 (or pick your number, based on vegata's numbers it looks to be about 18) trains on Lakeshore generate more additional ridership than putting in all day 1hr service on the Barrie or the Milton or the Georgetown line? If you can get more new riders from allocating the 20 extra trains onto lines that currently only have peak service, theoretically it makes more sense to put them there. But if having 30 minute service on Lakeshore will create a greater spike in ridership, it makes more sense to put them there.

 

[nfitz]

You can only do one....which do you do?

I think that GO has made it pretty clear they are going for gradual implementation. They aren't suddenly one day going from peak to once-an hour weekday service. You'd see what was happening on the Georgetown line, before they cut back to just peak for all the construction. A train here and there ... and then gradually they'd work up to hourly.

Ditto on Lakeshore ... they started adding in some 30-minute trains this week. I expect sometime in 2012 they'll trickle out more runs. So slowly that many won't even notice what's happening.

 

[TOareaFan]

I think that GO has made it pretty clear they are going for gradual implementation. They aren't suddenly one day going from peak to once-an hour weekday service. You'd see what was happening on the Georgetown line, before they cut back to just peak for all the construction. A train here and there ... and then gradually they'd work up to hourly.

Ditto on Lakeshore ... they started adding in some 30-minute trains this week. I expect sometime in 2012 they'll trickle out more runs. So slowly that many won't even notice what's happening.

I would imagine that a line like Barrie (which seems to be the frist non-Lakeshore line which will be totally free of physical limitations to all day service) would make easing in harder given the total travel time from top to bottom of the line.

It would not be my first choice of lines to add all day service to but given that it will be readyiest firstest why not?

To me it is just a bit intuitive that there are more new, at the margin, riders available on the lines that currently do not have any off peak service than there are on the Lakeshore lines.

I just think there are more likely to be a lot more people saying "I don't use GO because the schedule offers me NO flexibility during the day" than there are people saying "I don't use GO because I don't have that extra half hour to wait".

 

[gweed123]

I would imagine that a line like Barrie (which seems to be the frist non-Lakeshore line which will be totally free of physical limitations to all day service) would make easing in harder given the total travel time from top to bottom of the line.

It would not be my first choice of lines to add all day service to but given that it will be readyiest firstest why not?

To me it is just a bit intuitive that there are more new, at the margin, riders available on the lines that currently do not have any off peak service than there are on the Lakeshore lines.

I just think there are more likely to be a lot more people saying "I don't use GO because the schedule offers me NO flexibility during the day" than there are people saying "I don't use GO because I don't have that extra half hour to wait".

I think the all-day service will likely have short-turns in it (only going up to Newmarket or something). I have to think that sending that many trains up to Barrie would be a waste of resources. Maybe send 1 mid-day train up, but that should be all it needs outside of peak hour trains.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Let's assume that at the end of the year the following conditions were met:

1. the passing track and signalization on the Barrie line were done and that, physically, it was ready for all day service
2. enough new crews were available to offer, either, 30 minute service on Lakeshore or that all day service on Barrie line.

You can only do one....which do you do?

2, Because those are the the busiest lines. (Lake Shore east and west)

I think what needs to be done is an analysis of "if we only have X number of conductors and engineers for X number of trains, what's the optimal way of allocating them?"

Will allocating an extra 20 (or pick your number, based on vegata's numbers it looks to be about 18) trains on Lakeshore generate more additional ridership than putting in all day 1hr service on the Barrie or the Milton or the Georgetown line? If you can get more new riders from allocating the 20 extra trains onto lines that currently only have peak service, theoretically it makes more sense to put them there. But if having 30 minute service on Lakeshore will create a greater spike in ridership, it makes more sense to put them there.

Agreed. But IMO Milton is full, but empty trains in North Mississauga during the day?

I think that GO has made it pretty clear they are going for gradual implementation. They aren't suddenly one day going from peak to once-an hour weekday service. You'd see what was happening on the Georgetown line, before they cut back to just peak for all the construction. A train here and there ... and then gradually they'd work up to hourly.

Ditto on Lakeshore ... they started adding in some 30-minute trains this week. I expect sometime in 2012 they'll trickle out more runs. So slowly that many won't even notice what's happening.

The might be what happens. I would prefer a rush roll out.

 

[gweed123]

2, Because those are the the busiest lines. (Lake Shore east and west)

But if other lines get similar levels of service is there a guarantee that Lakeshore will still be the highest? Personally I think the Milton or Georgetown lines could give Lakeshore West a run for its money if they were evenly scheduled.

Agreed. But IMO Milton is full, but empty trains in North Mississauga during the day?

Not exactly sure what you mean here.

The might be what happens. I would prefer a rush roll out.

Both methods have their merits. A gradual rollout is easier for GO to manage, but a flash roll out is easier for GO to market to the public (i.e. "Hourly GO Train service now available on the Milton line").

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

But if other lines get similar levels of service is there a guarantee that Lakeshore will still be the highest? Personally I think the Milton or Georgetown lines could give Lakeshore West a run for its money if they were evenly scheduled.

True, but for that to happen, they would need express service.

Not exactly sure what you mean here.

Between 9 and 3 the Bus are not full on the other lines. Georgetown, Milton, Lincolnville, etc. Trains in that timeframe would be even more empty.

Both methods have their merits. A gradual rollout is easier for GO to manage, but a flash roll out is easier for GO to market to the public (i.e. "Hourly GO Train service now available on the Milton line").

True. But a flash would get more people to know faster.

 

[TOareaFan]

True, but for that to happen, they would need express service.

So we should just keep loading resources onto the line that already has all that so we never find out?

Between 9 and 3 the Bus are not full on the other lines. Georgetown, Milton, Lincolnville, etc. Trains in that timeframe would be even more empty.

There are a fair number of those off peak lakeshore trains running with pretty sparse ridership....should we cancel them?

 

[nfitz]

There are a fair number of those off peak lakeshore trains running with pretty sparse ridership....should we cancel them?

I catch the midnight train eastbound on a weekday from time to time ... even it isn't that empty. If it was the old 6-car single-level trains, it would feel packed!

On a weekend, I'm surprised how full they are some times. It was standing room only Saturday a couple of weeks ago.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

So we should just keep loading resources onto the line that already has all that so we never find out?

But the line does not have all the resources.

There are a fair number of those off peak lakeshore trains running with pretty sparse ridership....should we cancel them?

Not necessairly true. Worst train is probably the eastbounds after 4:00 and those are semi full.

 

[EnviroTO]

The might be what happens. I would prefer a rush roll out.

A rushed roll out would lead to many near empty trains.

 

[drum118]

Those extra 5 trains for off peak only need to be 5 cars for the time being, since there will be less riders for 10 cars, let alone 12. Total waste of resource going to 10-12 cars.

When the eMU's come along, you can run 3-5 cars train every 20 minutes with no problems.

You can still use these short trains at peak time, since they will only make 1-2 trips at peak time. There will be longer trains at that time to handle the extra load. At the same time, you can make 10-12 cars or break them to 3-5 cars on the fly and faster than the current setup using eMU's.

 

[Platform 27]

The passing track is already in place and I believe they are working on signalizing it right now. Also the plan is to signalize a good portion of the line, not just around the passing track. Its not as quick and easy as it sounds though.

Once they've finished that, hourly service will be no problem. They could technically run all-day service on the line without signals, but trains going into and out of the passing would take a huge delay every time they use it, not sure if they could maintain hourly service in that case. Plus there's an added level of safety with signals. People can screw up train orders much more easily than missing lights. Both are extremely rare occurrences, but you only need it to happen once to result in a devastating accident. It reminds me of a quote some terrorist bastard said one time - You have to get lucky all the time, I only have to get lucky once.

I'd heard similarly---the plan is to signalize Barrie from the current end of CTC (somewhere south of Rutherford station, right vegeta?) all the way up to Barrie in one shot, and they are indeed moving on it this year. Stouffville's being signalized as well, and I think they'll be done simultaneously. Rail signalization is a lot more complicated than installing a new stoplight, so seeing as I can't recall seeing a tender go up yet we're probably still talking more than a year from completion.

It's also worth remembering although signalization does make two-way service a lot easier, I bet the real immediate payoff they're looking for is being able to further improve peak service. Now that the extra Barrie train has been shoe-horned in, both lines are completely tapped out at five trips per rush with 30 minute gaps between them. Signals would let them push towards 6, 7, 8 trains in the rush with 15 minutes between them, although I guess the number of trains they can stockpile overnight at the ends of the line and congestion at Union then becomes the limiting factor.