[TOareaFan]

One shot one kill.


On top of what Drum said, CP rail control Milton and those other lines. They don't want expansion right now. CN has sold most of lakeshore to GO and it would be easer for Metrolinx

legit question...who owns the Barrie line that started this discussion/comparison/alternative?

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

legit question...who owns the Barrie line that started this discussion/comparison/alternative?

I think that is CP, but Vegeta when he comes on can confirm that

 

[andrewpmk]

Leaving aside the issue of whether 30 minute off-peak is really as prevalent across North America as you think it is, don't forget GO does offer 30 minute service. It just offers it using smaller vehicles with rubber wheels that run along pre-existing rights-of-way called "roads."

Few other regional train operators in North America have as comprehensive a bus network as GO. Yes, as traffic gets worse and rush hour gets longer, the speed of buses aren't going to remain great forever. But for now, for most of the day, for most stations, they do offer a faster or comparable trip time.

The trouble with GO bus service though is that:
- None of the GO stations in the City of Toronto have GO bus service from Union. This includes stations like Agincourt, Milliken and Etobicoke North which could easily justify it because TTC travel times are so slow (and also places with no train service like Malvern and Rexdale).
- Bus service is still hourly on many routes at many times of day. There is half-hourly or better service parts of the day on some routes especially Milton and there is extra service in the busy shoulder peak periods.
- Lakeshore has hourly train service and no regular bus service (except early morning/late night and Hamilton express).

Since Lakeshore has worse frequency at off peak times than many of the bus routes (especially Milton) have at certain off peak times, 30 minute service needs to be prioritized. At least run 30 minute service midday and early evenings on weekdays when demand is the highest. GO should introduce more 30 minute bus service on the GO bus system to keep non-Lakeshore customers happy, if running all day train service on more lines is not financially viable.

 

[TOareaFan]

Since Lakeshore has worse frequency at off peak times than many of the bus routes (especially Milton) have at certain off peak times, 30 minute service needs to be prioritized. At least run 30 minute service midday and early evenings on weekdays when demand is the highest. GO should introduce more 30 minute bus service on the GO bus system to keep non-Lakeshore customers happy, if running all day train service on more lines is not financially viable.

Or they could run one of those polls that they inundate us with and since the Lakeshore line is so poorly served in off peak just ask all the non-Lakeshore people if they would consider giving up that special red-carpet bus service they are getting in exchange for hourly trains all day.

It might be close but there is a chance that the Lakeshore clients can get their half-hourly buses by giving up/trading their trains....those fools who don't live by the lake might just think that they would win in the trade getting hourly trains!

 

[vegeta_skyline]

legit question...who owns the Barrie line that started this discussion/comparison/alternative?

GO owns all the tracks on that line, same goes for the Lakeshore East and Stouffville lines. Curiously enough, no one's mentioned the Stouffville line as one of the early candidates for service expansion. Somewhat strange considering its situation is almost identical to the Barrie line i.e. both are completely owned by GO, the ridership is almost identical (granted Stouffville has 5 trains while Barrie has 4) both have passing tracks installed and both are being signalized.

All GO trains should be using only a 2 man crew to operate the current system. Once you move to 3-5 car trains, only need 1.

Theoretically they could go to 2 per train but it wouldn't change anything regarding the current shortage of engineers. Also GO/Bombardier do not have the final say in that, Transport Canada does. They can ask for an exclusion but they would have to prove that safety would not be compromised. Considering the absurd amount of rules and procedures we currently have to follow, I'd say there's little chance of that happening. At least not until they install cab signaling, which is still a long ways away.

 

[nfitz]

Curiously enough, no one's mentioned the Stouffville line as one of the early candidates for service expansion.

I noted 2 days ago that Metrolinx had back in June identified the full-day priority targets as Barrie, Stouffville, and Milton lines (along with the Lakeshore service increase).

I'm not sure why Milton is on the list, given the infrastructure work necessary there ... perhaps they are eyeing a couple of trains earlier than that ...

With all the construction on the Georgetown service adjacent to part of the Barrie line, I expect that Stouffville is the most likely line where we'd first see added all-day service. Though I'd guess Milton is where the biggest demand (other than Lakeshore) is, passenger-wise ... and then perhaps Georgetown.

 

[gweed123]

I noted 2 days ago that Metrolinx had back in June identified the full-day priority targets as Barrie, Stouffville, and Milton lines (along with the Lakeshore service increase).

I'm not sure why Milton is on the list, given the infrastructure work necessary there ... perhaps they are eyeing a couple of trains earlier than that ...

With all the construction on the Georgetown service adjacent to part of the Barrie line, I expect that Stouffville is the most likely line where we'd first see added all-day service. Though I'd guess Milton is where the biggest demand (other than Lakeshore) is, passenger-wise ... and then perhaps Georgetown.

I would think that announcing all day service on the Stouffville line at the same time as you announce the completion of the grade-separation at Sheppard would be good timing. GO can spin in that "ok, now that Sheppard is separated, we can give all day service now" (not that the grade separation was holding it back at all, it just looks nice).

Same thing goes for the diamonds on the Barrie line, although those actually have an operational impact.

 

[EnviroTO]

I would think that announcing all day service on the Stouffville line at the same time as you announce the completion of the grade-separation at Sheppard would be good timing. GO can spin in that "ok, now that Sheppard is separated, we can give all day service now" (not that the grade separation was holding it back at all, it just looks nice).

Diamond separations provide operational benefits, grade separation on Sheppard doesn't. Why would GO want to spin anything with respect to the Sheppard Grade separation? It wasn't GO that prioritized the project.

 

[vegeta_skyline]

Diamond separations provide operational benefits, grade separation on Sheppard doesn't. Why would GO want to spin anything with respect to the Sheppard Grade separation? It wasn't GO that prioritized the project.

While it doesn't compare to grade separating rail crossings at grade there are a few minor benefits. The removal of level crossings can result in increased speed limits on that portion of the line. The current zone speed is 40mph, not including temporary slow orders for construction. It should increase to a 50mph zone, which currently starts just north of the station. Of course, considering the proximity of Agincourt station, it would only benefit express trains (there currently is one during the morning rush). As for trains stopping at the station, at least they won't have to "approach the crossing at a speed not exceeding 10 mph from a distance of 300ft until the crossing is fully occupied" anymore. No more worrying about the crossing circuit, just full speed away! Then again, the time savings would only be maybe a dozen seconds or so (per southward train). Lastly there is the safety aspect. I'm sure the people on the train that got stuck at that crossing for a couple of hours after the fatality last year(or was it two years ago?) would of appreciated it, especially the operating crew. It was an accident and not the more common suicide, so a grade separation could have prevented that tragedy.

Still considering all that, it would definitely be a stretch for the government to suggest that it makes a significant difference in bringing all day service to the line.

While it obviously doesn't apply in this case/line, before HSR can be implemented on other lines, they would need to be completely grade separated. It would not be a stretch to say a similar project on such a line has a large future benefit, providing we ever see HSR in Ontario that is

 

[gweed123]

While it doesn't compare to grade separating rail crossings at grade there are a few minor benefits. The removal of level crossings can result in increased speed limits on that portion of the line. The current zone speed is 40mph, not including temporary slow orders for construction. It should increase to a 50mph zone, which currently starts just north of the station. Of course, considering the proximity of Agincourt station, it would only benefit express trains (there currently is one during the morning rush). As for trains stopping at the station, at least they won't have to "approach the crossing at a speed not exceeding 10 mph from a distance of 300ft until the crossing is fully occupied" anymore. No more worrying about the crossing circuit, just full speed away! Then again, the time savings would only be maybe a dozen seconds or so (per southward train). Lastly there is the safety aspect. I'm sure the people on the train that got stuck at that crossing for a couple of hours after the fatality last year(or was it two years ago?) would of appreciated it, especially the operating crew. It was an accident and not the more common suicide, so a grade separation could have prevented that tragedy.

Still considering all that, it would definitely be a stretch for the government to suggest that it makes a significant difference in bringing all day service to the line.

While it obviously doesn't apply in this case/line, before HSR can be implemented on other lines, they would need to be completely grade separated. It would not be a stretch to say a similar project on such a line has a large future benefit, providing we ever see HSR in Ontario that is

Good explanation. I was trying to think of it more from a PR perspective than an actual operational perspective. For example: "We're pleased to announce that not only is the underpass at Sheppard completed, but we're also announcing all-day service on the Stouffville line."

 

[canarob]

GO owns all the tracks on that line, same goes for the Lakeshore East and Stouffville lines. Curiously enough, no one's mentioned the Stouffville line as one of the early candidates for service expansion. Somewhat strange considering its situation is almost identical to the Barrie line i.e. both are completely owned by GO, the ridership is almost identical (granted Stouffville has 5 trains while Barrie has 4) both have passing tracks installed and both are being signalized.

I mention it as often as I can.

Given the population growth in the corridor, this would make a lot of sense. Also, in the future when Kennedy Station becomes "Union Station East," having frequent service between it and Union would be a huge benefit for commuters.

Before all-day service, it would be great to get an express train that left at a more reasonable hour (and a northbound express).

In the meantime, I'll just be happy when we get 12-car trains this fall.

 

[reaperexpress]

Curiously enough, no one's mentioned the Stouffville line as one of the early candidates for service expansion. Somewhat strange considering its situation is almost identical to the Barrie line i.e. both are completely owned by GO, the ridership is almost identical (granted Stouffville has 5 trains while Barrie has 4) both have passing tracks installed and both are being signalized.

In fact, the Stouffville line has much more potential for subway-style ridership because it has many trip generators other than Downtown Toronto, including Pacific Mall, New Downtown Markham, Old Markham and Old Unionville, not to mention a good connection to the B-D subway and SRT/Crosstown at Kennedy.

However it would much easier to completely double-track the Barrie line (allowing higher frequency), because its ROW is wider, having been double tracked in the past.

One thing that hasn't been discussed much is the effect of intensive GO services on the built form the GTA. The change from no service to 60min service wouldn't do too much because 60 min service is hardly practical as walk-up transit. On the other hand, with service levels better than 30min, the GO line would start attracting dense transit-oriented development like a subway line.

 

[Dan416]

One thing that hasn't been discussed much is the effect of intensive GO services on the built form the GTA. The change from no service to 60min service wouldn't do too much because 60 min service is hardly practical as walk-up transit. On the other hand, with service levels better than 30min, the GO line would start attracting dense transit-oriented development like a subway line.

I agree to an extent.

But I think hourly service on all lines would have something of an effect, and half-hourly would have an even bigger effect. Every GO line would become popular like the subway, although not along the whole length necessarily.

 

[canarob]

In fact, the Stouffville line has much more potential for subway-style ridership because it has many trip generators other than Downtown Toronto, including Pacific Mall, New Downtown Markham, Old Markham and Old Unionville, not to mention a good connection to the B-D subway and SRT/Crosstown at Kennedy.

However it would much easier to completely double-track the Barrie line (allowing higher frequency), because its ROW is wider, having been double tracked in the past.

One thing that hasn't been discussed much is the effect of intensive GO services on the built form the GTA. The change from no service to 60min service wouldn't do too much because 60 min service is hardly practical as walk-up transit. On the other hand, with service levels better than 30min, the GO line would start attracting dense transit-oriented development like a subway line.

I know Markham is starting to increase densities around GO stations now, but there have certainly been missed opportunities over the years (especially the area around Mount Joy). The current growth plan accounts for more intensification around most of the stations, but the amount of land set aside for this seems a bit small, with the obvious exception of Markham Centre. Even now, I see proximity to a GO station as a huge plus in the 905. Again using the example of Markham, many of the newer areas are a decent bus ride or drive to the nearest GO station (this will improve a bit in the east when the GO line to Peterborough becomes real). For commuters like me, I would never live more than a couple of kilometers from a GO station as my commute is long enough and I like to be able to walk to the station, which I often do.

 

[Long Island Mike]

On weekdays I think NYC (NJ Transit ) runs close to 30 min.

T1: In the NYC area NJT has half-hourly service on weekdays on the Northeast Corridor Line to Trenton
and I believe the Morris and Essex Line E of Summit to Hoboken and Penn Station has that frequency also...

The LIRR runs half hourly service on both the Babylon Branch and the Main Line W of Hicksville (both Ronkonkoma
and Huntington/Port Jefferson Branch trains) which are two of its busiest routes...

Metro-North runs half hourly weekday service on its three lines-the electrified sections of the Hudson
and Harlem Lines S of Croton-Harmon and North White Plains respectively and the New Haven Line
main to New Haven sees half-hourly service at least to Stamford...

I feel that the GO Lakeshore line can warrant half-hourly service on much if not all the route from Hamilton
to Oshawa on weekdays-this will be a faster easier operation once this line becomes electrified with MU cars...

LI MIKE