[denfromoakvillemilton]

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/201...tml?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
WATERLOO—Voters in one of Ontario’s most competitive races can decide which candidate they trust to deliver the elusive dream of “two-way, all-day” GO train service to Toronto.

Commuting complaints are a bee-like buzz in Kitchener-Waterloo, won by NDP MPP Catherine Fife in a byelection 19 months ago after Conservative veteran Elizabeth Witmer resigned.

Fife, 45, along with rivals Tracey Weiler, the 40-year-old Progressive Conservative, and Liberal Jamie Burton, 46, are all hearing demands for improved rapid transit and job creation.

“Two-way, all-day GO has been held out like a carrot in front of this community for so long. They’re impatient for change,” Fife says of the southwest riding that includes Waterloo and north Kitchener.

Weiler says her neighbours need more flexibility getting to Toronto and back, while employers in the vibrant tech hub need Toronto-based talent to have reasonable commuting options.

“Right now with the (Highway) 401 being so congested it is not allowing us to leverage that economic environment,” says the finance and accounting professional who used to travel the world for BlackBerry.

Burton, a veteran school volunteer who has won entrepreneur awards for her tech support firm that employs people with disabilities, says: “None of us want to sit in traffic for five hours a day when we could be at home.”

 

[MrsNesbitt]

yesterday, on twitter, Glen Murray released (for the first time as far as i can tell) how the 15 minute GO service will be rolled out.

Glen Murray ‏@Glen4ONT May 23
@GTAMOVEnetwork #GO lakeshore would be electrified & operating on a 15 min schedule by 2017-18 if we r reelected. Entire system by 2024-25.

So, again, additional service on the line with 30 minute service 7 days a week has priority over the rest of the system.

As was said above access to the yards at Willowbrook and (in the near future) Whitby will be important and that's probably part of why GO is looking to electrify Lakeshore first, but it comes down to the fact that Lakeshore is already the most thoroughly-built, double-tracked the whole way, with Metrolinx owning the tracks and even having its own dedicated subdivision east of Pickering. Although to be fair, ridership is only what it is on other lines due to untapped potential.

That being said, I agree with you that it's infuriating for the rest of the region to wait another between six and eight years for the rest of the system to be electrified. Begin it all at once damn you, it could all use it!

^^that's just my transit nerd talking, not my realist side

 

[innsertnamehere]

The EA for lakeshore is already done as well, meaning that it's got a 2 year lead on other projects. It also doesn't need the extensive amount of grade separations that some other lines require.

Milton will probably be the laggard with its issues with CP.

That said, I wouldn't be surprised if Metrolinx went ahead and phased in AD2W service with regular diesel trains first as the EAs for that are already done on several corridors and it is needed for Electrification anyway.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Stouffville (unionville) and Brampton could have all day service already. Metrolinx is just lazy.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Stouffville couldn't. They could have hourly service going in a single direction, which sort of already exists anyway.

 

[TOareaFan]

Yards, EAs, ridership....none of those are the reasons he is giving.

Point is, really, that even if Ontario gives Mr Murray's party a majority mandate, the only lines that he is guaranteeing 15 minute service to is LS...so the whole plan has less meaning to the rest of us.....we would hear the same promise again when they stood for re-election.

 

[innsertnamehere]

.. construction would be well underway by 2019 on all the lines..

We live in reality here, not instant transit fantasy land. A politician may be able to promise you electrified transit on all lines by 2018, but that isn't realistic. Its also not like they would have Lakeshore open in 2017 and the rest open in 2024, it would be a phased construction with the final phase opening in 2024 (likely Richmond Hill). Kitchener would likely come second after Lakeshore a year or two later, Its placed on second priority in the Metrolinx electrification study. No matter your personal biases on what line is "yours", it only makes sense to do Lakeshore first.

Metrolinx would also likely do a dual phase in with regular AD2W service being implemented a few years before electrification, as mentioned.

He isn't mentioning those as you can't fit that in 140 characters. If you look at the study documents behind the phasing implementation and cost analyses (electrification of the entire network would cost roughly $3 billion presuming all day 2 way infrastructure is already in place, meaning roughly $8 billion total cost including the $5 billion to build the all day infrastructure) it lays out the reasons why Lakeshore comes first, including yard access, most benefits, most time savings, (travel times from Hamilton would be cut by almost 15 minutes), largest ridership, etc. Believe it or not the all day electrification isn't being pulled out of the Liberals a**es, there have been studies looking at it before, and that is where Murray is getting a lot of this info.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Stouffville couldn't. They could have hourly service going in a single direction, which sort of already exists anyway.

Yards, EAs, ridership....none of those are the reasons he is giving.

Point is, really, that even if Ontario gives Mr Murray's party a majority mandate, the only lines that he is guaranteeing 15 minute service to is LS...so the whole plan has less meaning to the rest of us.....we would hear the same promise again when they stood for re-election.

.. construction would be well underway by 2019 on all the lines..

We live in reality here, not instant transit fantasy land. A politician may be able to promise you electrified transit on all lines by 2018, but that isn't realistic. Its also not like they would have Lakeshore open in 2017 and the rest open in 2024, it would be a phased construction with the final phase opening in 2024 (likely Richmond Hill). Kitchener would likely come second after Lakeshore a year or two later, Its placed on second priority in the Metrolinx electrification study. No matter your personal biases on what line is "yours", it only makes sense to do Lakeshore first.

Metrolinx would also likely do a dual phase in with regular AD2W service being implemented a few years before electrification, as mentioned.

Richmond Hill is actually supposed to start in in 2016, Barrie in 2017. But TOarea, you are not being fair. The Second half of the tweet does say that all day service is coming to other lines. Of course he will be saying the same thing in another mandate as full rollout will take 10 years.

Having said that, hourly service is not much to ask, and could be started way faster. Metrolinx needs to show they are actually doing something other then being involved in the mess that is GTA transit. For once.

 

[TOareaFan]

Richmond Hill is actually supposed to start in in 2016, Barrie in 2017. But TOarea, you are not being fair. The Second half of the tweet does say that all day service is coming to other lines. Of course he will be saying the same thing in another mandate as full rollout will take 10 years.

How am I not being fair? I was the one that copied the tweet to here? I am saying that there is more value in introducing all day service on other lines (any line) whether it is hourly, half hourly or his 15 minute plan before further upgrading the LS.

Now, my conversation with Mr. Murray took an interesting twist when I asked him if they could even move the diesel trains no longer needed on LS in 2017/2018 to provide all day service elsewhere while they await electrification:

Toarea Fan ‏@TOareaFan 2h
@Glen4ONT if LS is electrified by '18 why not use the diesel trains to offer the service to other lines while they await electrified

Glen Murray ‏@Glen4ONT 28m
@TOareaFan because there already is service on those lines. These are Metrolinx decisions but all lines electrified within 10 yrs

Toarea Fan ‏@TOareaFan 28m
@Glen4ONT but none have AD2W 7 day service

Glen Murray ‏@Glen4ONT 26m
@TOareaFan. Yes many do. But Metrolinx has definitions for what that means. Only lakeshore has all day 1/2 hour service of better.

Toarea Fan ‏@TOareaFan 25m
@Glen4ONT only Lakeshore has All day rail service..period. Only Lakeshore has weekend trains...period.


Toarea Fan
‏@TOareaFan
@Glen4ONT ok....which other lines have all day rail service?


Glen Murray ‏@Glen4ONT 12m
@TOareaFan Go to MLX website to see their definitions of the term & the schedules. Many with different frequency. Mgm't decisions not me.

Toarea Fan ‏@TOareaFan 8m
@Glen4ONT I'll check...but are you saying that those that can't catch trains mid day shd be "ok" cause by ML def. they have all day service?

no answer.

So what is this mysterious definition of all day rail service that he refers to that ML has that many other lines other than LS meet? Where on the ML site can I find it?

 

[drum118]

The roll out for all day service over 10 years is ok as it will take that long to hire and train engineers since they don't grow on trees or fall off other RR.

As for electrification, of the LS, how can equipment used on that line be assign to other lines when it will be 2018/19 depending on June 12 election that it can be electrify first considering the UPX is to be done first?? Then you got the issue of ordering the EMU's equipment and that will be 2-3 years after a tender been issue as well the size of the order.

Once you start using the EMU's, GO is going to have a surplus of coaches since there will be more than enough to service all other lines as well expand beyond its current range.

After LS is electrify, which line should be next and WHY??

High Speed trains will be something different from what we currently see and will not be using any existing rolling stock of GO.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

How am I not being fair? I was the one that copied the tweet to here? I am saying that there is more value in introducing all day service on other lines (any line) whether it is hourly, half hourly or his 15 minute plan before further upgrading the LS.

Now, my conversation with Mr. Murray took an interesting twist when I asked him if they could even move the diesel trains no longer needed on LS in 2017/2018 to provide all day service elsewhere while they await electrification:

Because it says in the original tweet the other lines will get all day service. I don't see the issue if Murray says the current government says they will do it.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

The roll out for all day service over 10 years is ok as it will take that long to hire and train engineers since they don't grow on trees or fall off other RR.

As for electrification, of the LS, how can equipment used on that line be assign to other lines when it will be 2018/19 depending on June 12 election that it can be electrify first considering the UPX is to be done first?? Then you got the issue of ordering the EMU's equipment and that will be 2-3 years after a tender been issue as well the size of the order.

Once you start using the EMU's, GO is going to have a surplus of coaches since there will be more than enough to service all other lines as well expand beyond its current range.

After LS is electrify, which line should be next and WHY??

High Speed trains will be something different from what we currently see and will not be using any existing rolling stock of GO.

They have the personnel to do it already. Why they haven't is another matter.

 

[TOareaFan]

The roll out for all day service over 10 years is ok as it will take that long to hire and train engineers since they don't grow on trees or fall off other RR.

As for electrification, of the LS, how can equipment used on that line be assign to other lines when it will be 2018/19 depending on June 12 election that it can be electrify first considering the UPX is to be done first?? Then you got the issue of ordering the EMU's equipment and that will be 2-3 years after a tender been issue as well the size of the order.

The question about re-assigning the equipment was in response to Mr Murray's statement that the LS would be electrified and operating on 15 minute schedule by 2017/2018....it seemed like a fair question......rather than have the other lines wait for all day service until electrification....use the now superfluous diesel equipment elsewhere.

As for the shortage of crews, you and I have had this discussion before and never ceases to amaze me how crews always seem available to increase service levels on the LS lines and appear to be again (if service levels are to be doubled again in 2017 or 2018) but the crew shortage issue comes up when discussing all day service on other lines.

 

[ehlow]

.. construction would be well underway by 2019 on all the lines..

We live in reality here, not instant transit fantasy land. A politician may be able to promise you electrified transit on all lines by 2018, but that isn't realistic. Its also not like they would have Lakeshore open in 2017 and the rest open in 2024, it would be a phased construction with the final phase opening in 2024 (likely Richmond Hill). Kitchener would likely come second after Lakeshore a year or two later, Its placed on second priority in the Metrolinx electrification study. No matter your personal biases on what line is "yours", it only makes sense to do Lakeshore first.

Metrolinx would also likely do a dual phase in with regular AD2W service being implemented a few years before electrification, as mentioned.

He isn't mentioning those as you can't fit that in 140 characters. If you look at the study documents behind the phasing implementation and cost analyses (electrification of the entire network would cost roughly $3 billion presuming all day 2 way infrastructure is already in place, meaning roughly $8 billion total cost including the $5 billion to build the all day infrastructure) it lays out the reasons why Lakeshore comes first, including yard access, most benefits, most time savings, (travel times from Hamilton would be cut by almost 15 minutes), largest ridership, etc. Believe it or not the all day electrification isn't being pulled out of the Liberals a**es, there have been studies looking at it before, and that is where Murray is getting a lot of this info.

Thanks for in the info. 15 min electric trains on Lakeshore by 2017 already seems pretty damn great to me.

Especially if they use the sleek cool European style regional trains. Great news for Burlington, Oakville, south Mississauga, south Etobicoke.

 

[TOareaFan]

Because it says in the original tweet the other lines will get all day service. I don't see the issue if Murray says the current government says they will do it.

Firstly, I did not hide or deny that he said it in the tweet.....it is something he has been saying since the pre-budget leak.....but this "announced" schedule confirms what some (including I) had feared....that outside of the LS, no one can really be "guaranteed" all day service by re-electing this government.

In my twitter exchange with him tonight he said that KW line would be the second one electrified.....so I asked when that would start....and there was no reply. So, he is confident enough to state the completion date of the LS electrificaiton and the commencement of 15 minute service.....but can't/won't comment on the start date of the next one?