[smallspy]

Why not instead only announce the completion of projects only?

And how do they prove to the constituents and the general populace that they are actually doing anything?

Remember, these grand announcements that they put on for any given project - and in some cases, multiple times for each project - are as much as to remind people what they are doing and to vote for them in the next election as anything else.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[amnesiajune]

It's also generally helpful for people to know what public works projects are in the pipeline. For example, right now someone who works in Markham and is looking for a new home might take a serious look at the area around Main Street in the east end because they know that, 5-10 years from now, they'll probably be able to catch direct trains from there to Unionville. Similarly someone who works around the airport can consider moving to Bloor West, where they'll soon be able to catch trains to/from Malton during rush hour.

 

[TOareaFan]

It's also generally helpful for people to know what public works projects are in the pipeline. For example, right now someone who works in Markham and is looking for a new home might take a serious look at the area around Main Street in the east end because they know that, 5-10 years from now, they'll probably be able to catch direct trains from there to Unionville. Similarly someone who works around the airport can consider moving to Bloor West, where they'll soon be able to catch trains to/from Malton during rush hour.

And someone might have looked and thought "a house in the old A or B or C sections of Bramalea is a good purchase because there will be 7 day 2 way service by March 31 2017"......see, there is a flip side to saying too much....as someone pointed out earlier, they leave themselves open to criticism when they don't meet the dates.

Even this Barrie announcement must be seen as a failed promise. They were promised midweek off peak service by the end of fiscal 2017/18.....so, by March 31, 2018...,,what they got was the star of that process but I can't see how that process can be complete in 9 months....,can it?

 

[amnesiajune]

And someone might have looked and thought "a house in the old A or B or C sections of Bramalea is a good purchase because there will be 7 day 2 way service by March 31 2017"......see, there is a flip side to saying too much....as someone pointed out earlier, they leave themselves open to criticism when they don't meet the dates.

It's stupid to consider exact dates (and also pretty meaningless when you're looking at somewhere that you'll live for decades), but if construction is underway you can be pretty certain that a project is going to be finished sooner or later.

 

[TOareaFan]

It's stupid to consider exact dates (and also pretty meaningless when you're looking at somewhere that you'll live for decades), but if construction is underway you can be pretty certain that a project is going to be finished sooner or later.

It is, indeed, a very sad world we live in when someone can be considered stupid for the simple act of believing a date that their government published in a document as serious as a budget. Very sad.

 

[micheal_can]

I know they do it so that they can get elected. I did not say not to make it public, but do not make an announcement till it is done.

GO and other government services all have websites. The information could be posted there as an announcement and the details of the project.

 

[amnesiajune]

It is, indeed, a very sad world we live in when someone can be considered stupid for the simple act of believing a date that their government published in a document as serious as a budget.

I don't think there's anything "very sad" about having a government that doesn't micro-manage every single thing that's contained in its $150 billion annual budget.

 

[dowlingm]

It is, indeed, a very sad world we live in when someone can be considered stupid for the simple act of believing a date that their government published in a document as serious as a budget. Very sad.

Anyone who is unaware of the perpetual slippage in Toronto transit projects deserves what they get. People who live on the Sheppard East LRT alignment have a real axe to grind because their project is de facto cancelled, not someone who had to wait 6-12 months longer because they banked on day 1 service.

 

[Allandale25]

I know they do it so that they can get elected. I did not say not to make it public, but do not make an announcement till it is done.

GO and other government services all have websites. The information could be posted there as an announcement and the details of the project.

If the government changes in June 2018, we'll get a chance to see how a different party handles service increase announcements, time frames, projects, etc. These chances only come every four years (or less if it's a minority) so we'll see if anything changes, or if it ultimately reverts back to what's happening now. I think the point some are making is that the politicians are politicians and it'll never change.

 

[crs1026]

It's stupid to consider exact dates (and also pretty meaningless when you're looking at somewhere that you'll live for decades), but if construction is underway you can be pretty certain that a project is going to be finished sooner or later.

Were we "stupid" to believe that the GTS project ended "on time and on budget" (as the Premier and Minister have claimed many times in the past two years) in 2015? There are still crews on line finishing up the sound walls and fencing on that line. There is a stretch up around Rogers/Black Creek where it is still waiting attention.

Sure, every project has some "loose end" work afterwards, but supposedly the GTS books have been closed and the funding cut off. ML is spending money from some other line in their budget to finish things that were clearly a GTS deliverable. That's pretty common when you build things, actually, but you don't brag about a victory that didn't happen.

The transparent and accountable approach is to publish a schedule up front, including contingencies, and with the caveat that it will be adjusted as events dictate. And then, report changes to schedule and scope with explanation as these take place. (It's people who think infrastructure projects to happen exactly on time, on budget without any unforeseens or blips, that are "stupid", IMHO. Stuff happens, the key is how the organization responds to these events).

What's sad is that some of us feel the need to fill our hard drives with copies of old documents and press clippings, so that when the history is rewritten a few years later, we have the original version of the commitments about what will be built, by when, at what cost.

- Paul

 

[TOareaFan]

I know they do it so that they can get elected. I did not say not to make it public, but do not make an announcement till it is done.

A budget delivered in the spring of 2016 for a government that does not have to face the electorate until June of 2018 is not an election document...it is a governing document....and if budgets can't be taken seriously.....then what can?

GO and other government services all have websites. The information could be posted there as an announcement and the details of the project.

Ok....I'll bite....say I was someone who was aware that the 2016 budget promised that there would be evening and weekend service on the KW line by March 31, 2017...just pretend that's the case .....which web site should I visit now that that date is passed to get updates on the new plan and dates?

I think you overestimate the level of transparency that exists.......good news is happily announced....and completions are happily feted......missed deadlines are ignored and there will be no word on the missed service introduction until enough time has passed that most people have forgotten it and it can be re-announced as some fabulous new level of progress.

Even when you contact them directly you get mis-information and gobbly gook......my MPP, when asked, told me I had "mis-interpreted" this:

taken from http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/budget/ontariobudgets/2016/bk2.html

 

[Allandale25]

A budget delivered in the spring of 2016 for a government that does not have to face the electorate until June of 2018 is not an election document...it is a governing document....and if budgets can't be taken seriously.....then what can?

Ok....I'll bite....say I was someone who was aware that the 2016 budget promised that there would be evening and weekend service on the KW line by March 31, 2017...just pretend that's the case .....which web site should I visit now that that date is passed to get updates on the new plan and dates?

I'll bite too because I've commented on this before.

In terms of "which website" to check and the public's awareness of the various documents and how accessible they are, TOareaFan is absolutely right. Of the three places where the specific mention was made of off-peak service, two of the three places didn't include the disclaimer. It was only listed on a single page, and to get there you have to go to http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/budget/ontariobudgets/2016/papers_all.html and then click on"Download PDF", which is the PDF of the entire budget. No where on the Ministry's website does it say, "Click here for a full and complete copy of the budget". I find the City of Toronto does a better job of showing to the public where full copies of reports are located.

And then there's the PDF size. It's 408 pages, so I get the point that it's easier for the public to go to the summary pages or HTML page (the one linked to above). They could've and should've been more careful, and to another poster's point, actually do a better job GO's website at keeping folks updated, even if there is nothing new to report. I agree that from a communications point of view, between the Metrolinx website, GO website, and whatever the Province has, it can be difficult to track (pun intended) what is happening.

Given the time that has now passed, I think TOareaFan is right in terms of the communication inconsistencies. The MPP saying it has been "mis-interpreted" doesn't address the issue of how the service increase wasn't communicated across the board the same way, especially in the more accessible places. I'm even wondering if from a AODA perspective, that particular PDF file is universally readable by software people may have to use.

 

[crs1026]

The disclaimer notwithstanding, one wonders how the need to negotiate with the railways escaped anyone's imagination earlier, since it was always a key part of getting these service expansions going.

BTW Today is two days short of the 10th anniversary of the MoveOntario 2020 plan release. It's interesting to see what got accomplished in ten years, and what didn't.

- Paul

 

[TOareaFan]

The disclaimer notwithstanding, one wonders how the need to negotiate with the railways escaped anyone's imagination earlier, since it was always a key part of getting these service expansions going.

The fact that it was always an issue was precisely why the promise in the budget meant so much. The promise was taken as an indication that a solution had been reached....we went from "we hope to provide upgraded service in the near future but need to negotiate with CN" to "we will have evening and weekend service by March 31 2017".....how could that not be taken as a sign that something had changed? How could, for the first time, attaching a date to the service increase not be signal that they knew something in the spring of 2016 that they did not know before?..and, now that they just point back to the CN negotiations again not be a sign that the promise in 2016 was just a false promise that they had no idea how, or if, they could ever fulfill it?

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I don't think there's anything "very sad" about having a government that doesn't micro-manage every single thing that's contained in its $150 billion annual budget.

It's stupid to consider exact dates (and also pretty meaningless when you're looking at somewhere that you'll live for decades), but if construction is underway you can be pretty certain that a project is going to be finished sooner or later.

This is completely inane. They made a promise. They broke it. End of story. Either provide the service or not. But don't call others stupid for simply believeing what they were told.