[ShonTron]

I think using the Hespeler Sub north-east to Guelph would be a much better proposition, and put a station in Cambridge closer to downtown and the track is already there, just needs refurbishment.

You could simply extend one or two of the existing Georgetown terminating trains into Cambridge instead of going to Kitchener.

That would be the Fergus Spur, not the Hespeler Sub - it's the last remaining part of the CN Fergus Sub that ran between Lyndon and Palmerston (via Galt, Hespeler, Guelph and Fergus).

That track is in poor shape, with very few freight customers remaining in Cambridge. It would be better off as a recreational trail than a GO corridor in my opinion.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Looking at the "rapid transit" map from Metrolinx for York Region, it shows all day hourly GO service to Stouffville. First i've heard of this. Anyone else know more? Or is this just an error? My understanding has always been that hourly service will end at Mount Joy.

 

[robmausser]

That would be the Fergus Spur, not the Hespeler Sub - it's the last remaining part of the CN Fergus Sub that ran between Lyndon and Palmerston (via Galt, Hespeler, Guelph and Fergus).

That track is in poor shape, with very few freight customers remaining in Cambridge. It would be better off as a recreational trail than a GO corridor in my opinion.

I disagree.

If CPR doesn't agree to allow GO trains to Cambridge, I think it will be the best way to get GO trains there.

So what if the track is in bad shape? You ever heard of replacing track?

 

[TOareaFan]

I disagree.

If CPR doesn't agree to allow GO trains to Cambridge, I think it will be the best way to get GO trains there.

So what if the track is in bad shape? You ever heard of replacing track?

Sounds easy

Where does this Fergus sub meet the corridor that the Georgetown trains would be on? Is it easy to turn those trains southwest towards Cambridge?

 

[steveintoronto]

That would be the Fergus Spur, not the Hespeler Sub - it's the last remaining part of the CN Fergus Sub that ran between Lyndon and Palmerston (via Galt, Hespeler, Guelph and Fergus).

That track is in poor shape, with very few freight customers remaining in Cambridge. It would be better off as a recreational trail than a GO corridor in my opinion.

It is difficult to walk, let alone run trains over which have a (IIRC) 5 mph (8 kph) speed restriction. It's in terrible shape, so bad one only realizes it by walking it. Bolts are missing from the joint bars, some rails are splitting off their edges, and the trackbed has heaved along the entire length. The embankment is severely eroded where creeks run under it.

In a Dillon Consulting Report on Guelph Transit some years back mention was made of using it for LRT to connect Guelph to Cambridge, but the ridership demand is nowhere close to making that a proposition. Same report also mentioned using the Guelph Junction RR for LRV vehicles, even that was fantasy.

I find it hard to believe that even with the severe speed limit on it, it's been allowed to continue (two movements a week, IIRC, to Toyota in Cambridge). Derailments happen from time to time on it too.

 

[gweed123]

Sounds easy

Where does this Fergus sub meet the corridor that the Georgetown trains would be on? Is it easy to turn those trains southwest towards Cambridge?

Isn't that the sub that splits from the Kitchener Line just west of Guelph? I've also had the thought of rehabing that line and serving Cambridge that way instead of via the Milton Line. Another option would be to run DMU type vehicles between Cambridge and Guelph along that sub, timed to connect with an inbound GO train from Kitchener.

 

[steveintoronto]

Isn't that the sub that splits from the Kitchener Line just west of Guelph? I've also had the thought of rehabing that line and serving Cambridge that way instead of via the Milton Line. Another option would be to run DMU type vehicles between Cambridge and Guelph along that sub, timed to connect with an inbound GO train from Kitchener.

Yes, but the track from the Junction at Alma Street to Guelph Station has now been torn up (two years ago actually and signal cabins built on the RoW) and the infrastructure along the RoW left is not up for re-use unless completely replaced (culverts, embankments, cuttings, crossings, and the bridge over the Speed River in Hespeler). The RoW absolutely should be kept (Ontario law now requires it) for possible future use, but the costs of remediating it would be astronomical compared to the marginal gain. The funds would be far better spent elsewhere. Using the GJR, for instance, makes vastly more sense, it's in very good shape, albeit it feeds the CP line at Guelph Junction. On that latter point, I wonder if GO's slots from Guelph Junction (ex storage and service yard) to Milton are still reserved? Guelph to Milton could be an excellent test track for novel vehicle types like Hydrail. Since GJR is wholly owned by the City of Guelph, and Guelph has already hosted many 'Green' projects (recharging stations, etc) Guelph would bend over backwards to host the use of the GJR for such purposes. It would be no problem to use GJR to the Junction, but CP might be sticklers from there to Milton.

 

[TOareaFan]

Isn't that the sub that splits from the Kitchener Line just west of Guelph? I've also had the thought of rehabing that line and serving Cambridge that way instead of via the Milton Line.

I have no idea...that is why I asked.....but if it is west of Guelph that seems a much more circuitous route than getting to Cambridge via Milton...how long (assuming a decent level of track standard) would that take?

Another option would be to run DMU type vehicles between Cambridge and Guelph along that sub, timed to connect with an inbound GO train from Kitchener.

Adding a connection/transfer would a) add even more time to the journey.....b) mean, I guess, the train would have to either be stored in Guelph or dead head back to Georgetown ( @robmausser had suggested "You could simply extend one or two of the existing Georgetown terminating trains into Cambridge instead of going to Kitchener." )

 

[crs1026]

I don't believe CP has really said "No way" to service on the Galt Sub beyond Milton. In some past eras, they have even suggested this.

What may be closer to the truth is that CP said "Only if......"

Their price may be high, even unreasonably high, but it's a price, not a denial.

The roundabout idea via Guelph could be done by just extending two of the runs that tie up at Georgetown, but I wonder what the timing could be. Twenty miles from Georgetown to Guelph plus thirteen expensive upgraded miles to Cambridge, versus driving or bus Cambridge to Milton, may not really be that competitive. As noted, it would need a lot of rebuilding, but if the existing line is sketchy, so what? Those old joint bars will be gone anyways. My knee jerk reaction to this idea was to reject it, but I find myself actually liking this idea the more I think about it.

Putting GO trains through CP Guelph Jct to Guelph makes no sense. GJR has put a lot of money (for a shortline) into that track lately, but CP is no more likely to want GO back on the Campbellville hill, and the OSR yard would have to be reconfigured, and the tracks upgraded further. And signalling installed.

- Paul

 

[Leo_Chan]

So why have a branch to Kitchener and one to Cambridge? Why not have the Cambridge stop AFTER the Kitchener stop? Maybe ION Phase 2 would remove the need.

 

[Streety McCarface]

So why have a branch to Kitchener and one to Cambridge? Why not have the Cambridge stop AFTER the Kitchener stop? Maybe ION Phase 2 would remove the need.

It will still take over an hour to get from Downtown Cambridge to Kitchener GO by light rail.

 

[crs1026]

It will still take over an hour to get from Downtown Cambridge to Kitchener GO by light rail.

There's the rub. All of Cambridge is so close to the 401. It's just so damn easy to get in your car and get on the 401. You have the choice of Milton, Lisgar, Meadowvale, or Bramalea GO. All have large parking lots and you get off the 401 before it really gets solid. Or, take Highway 8 down to Aldershot.

I'm not naysaying GO to Cambridge, I'm just saying, it has to be more convenient than starting the day in the car. Or GO Bus. A GO train that does the difficult exit out of Preston and Hespeler to get to Guelph, and then stops all the way in to Union, may not be that attractive.

- Paul

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

There's the rub. All of Cambridge is so close to the 401. It's just so damn easy to get in your car and get on the 401. You have the choice of Milton, Lisgar, Meadowvale, or Bramalea GO. All have large parking lots and you get off the 401 before it really gets solid. Or, take Highway 8 down to Aldershot.

I'm not naysaying GO to Cambridge, I'm just saying, it has to be more convenient than starting the day in the car. Or GO Bus. A GO train that does the difficult exit out of Preston and Hespeler to get to Guelph, and then stops all the way in to Union, may not be that attractive.

- Paul

Versus getting caught in the 'Milton Crunch,' the inevitable slowdown between Milton and the 407? If anything, having a GO train close to the 401 is a benefit. It makes it convenient to hop off the highway and zip down on the train. Those other stations get busy, and it's a chore to get in and out using local streets.

 

[crs1026]

Versus getting caught in the 'Milton Crunch,' the inevitable slowdown between Milton and the 407? If anything, having a GO train close to the 401 is a benefit. It makes it convenient to hop off the highway and zip down on the train. Those other stations get busy, and it's a chore to get in and out using local streets.

Won't be a crunch when the 401 is twelve lanes....not for a decade or so, anyways. Yes, there is time taken to get to GO from the 401, but contrast that with the GO train grinding through Preston and Hespeler and then taking the roundabout route through Guelph. The car may still win.

I agree, the ideal would be to have people get on the GO train in Cambridge, and keep those cars off the 401 altogether. And, the GO station location in Cambridge for the Guelph diversion would not be optimal. So I favour the direct route on the Galt Sub. The only question is, what would CP demand for that? Likely some double track between Guelph Jct and Galt, perhaps not full double tracking. The other issue is what would it take for a semi express from Milton eastwards? Now we are back into what CP wants to add track east of there, and whether we want to do that or have CP join the bypass route, and what will that cost? I can understand why ML just puts its head in the sand and adds bus service.

- Paul

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

Won't be a crunch when the 401 is twelve lanes....not for a decade or so, anyways. Yes, there is time taken to get to GO from the 401, but contrast that with the GO train grinding through Preston and Hespeler and then taking the roundabout route through Guelph. The car may still win.

Sorry, I didn't fully sift through previous comments, I didn't realize we were talking about that roundabout alternative. I agree that is ridiculous.

But a 12-lane 401?! C'mon man, induced demand.