[ssiguy2]

One of the key problems with this proposal is that it was written and designed by Torontonians and not Londoners.

NOBODY in London is going to spend 4 hours on a train to get to Toronto. Also it's again this Toronto-centric idea that everyone is going to Toronto and not London. Nobody in Stratford or St.Mary's commutes to Toronto but a lot commute to London and yet they are the ones not being offered any service. This will be a huge fail which I'm starting to think is what QP wants.

Of course there is a way to make it appealing to Londoners and her commuters. First run smaller trains in the other direction so people can use it as a commuter route to London. Second, upgrade the tracks between KW & London as there is no way, in hell, that anyone is going to spend 2 hours to just get to KW.

This line is useless to basically everyone except those commuting to KW and even then it's just not worth it. What I think you will see {assuming QP actually wants the line to succeed} is improvements in the KW-London stretch to shave at least 45 minutes off the trip. Then once hitting KW, it becomes a semi-express with no stops until Woodbine where {hopefully} they will be able to transfer onto the UPX greatly helped by the current expansion of that section. This would bring the London to Pearson section to 2 hours and that is where Londoners using this route will be going if they go to Toronto. Even VIA's slow boat to China current southern route will be faster than London-KW to Union.

 

[Bordercollie]

One of the key problems with this proposal is that it was written and designed by Torontonians and not Londoners.

NOBODY in London is going to spend 4 hours on a train to get to Toronto. Also it's again this Toronto-centric idea that everyone is going to Toronto and not London. Nobody in Stratford or St.Mary's commutes to Toronto but a lot commute to London and yet they are the ones not being offered any service. This will be a huge fail which I'm starting to think is what QP wants.

Of course there is a way to make it appealing to Londoners and her commuters. First run smaller trains in the other direction so people can use it as a commuter route to London. Second, upgrade the tracks between KW & London as there is no way, in hell, that anyone is going to spend 2 hours to just get to KW.

This line is useless to basically everyone except those commuting to KW and even then it's just not worth it. What I think you will see {assuming QP actually wants the line to succeed} is improvements in the KW-London stretch to shave at least 45 minutes off the trip. Then once hitting KW, it becomes a semi-express with no stops until Woodbine where {hopefully} they will be able to transfer onto the UPX greatly helped by the current expansion of that section. This would bring the London to Pearson section to 2 hours and that is where Londoners using this route will be going if they go to Toronto. Even VIA's slow boat to China current southern route will be faster than London-KW to Union.

Why would you take the northern route to get to the airport from London? when you could just go to Union station and take the UP express?

The northern route for sure needs track improvements and even doubling the now 20mph track would be a huge improvement. What are trip times through Guelph supposed to be once trains can operate at full speed?

 

[ssiguy2]

There is one good thing about this service. As it expands and frequency and speed increase, VIA will basically give up on the route much like they have the KW to Union section. They hopefully will take those savings and plug the money into VIA's far more direct line to Union via Aldershot.

London to Union is a very lucrative route as London is the 4th busiest station in the entire VIA system and that route requires the least amount of subsidy per-rider per-km travelled than any other one in the system. This may finally force VIA and Ottawa to put much needed money into the route it's need.......the southern one.

 

[Urban Sky]

They should be discussing the importance of not duplicating an existing service. The VIA train already leaves London in the morning for Toronto. It would help if the GO Train did the opposite. But hey, feel free to waste tax payer funded money.

You are ignoring the opportunity cost associated with operating a counter-peak rather than peak service: regardless of how few people will be able and willing to take advantage of this service extension, using the trainset already used for GO services like #3860 and #3875 to extend these services beyond Kitchener will always be much less of a waste of taxpayer money than binding a trainset and crew during peak hours to operate far away from where they would be needed most...

 

[Bordercollie]

There is one good thing about this service. As it expands and frequency and speed increase, VIA will basically give up on the route much like they have the KW to Union section. They hopefully will take those savings and plug the money into VIA's far more direct line to Union via Aldershot.

London to Union is a very lucrative route as London is the 4th busiest station in the entire VIA system and that route requires the least amount of subsidy per-rider per-km travelled than any other one in the system. This may finally force VIA and Ottawa to put much needed money into the route it's need.......the southern one.

But this service already exists with VIA. Why would you replace a slower train with more stops with a train that has existing ridership?

If you are going to space them apart I think that's fine also but having the VIA train at 7:24am and then having a GO train leaving at 8am will make no sense.

If the VIA train leaves London at 7:24 the GO train should leave around 9:00 or around 6am before the VIA train. If the VIA departs after then I hope it doesn't get caught behind the GO train on its way to Union.

Counter peak services would allow people to go to Stratford for the day which is not currently possible. Extend the 8:30am train from Union to London.

 

[Urban Sky]

But this service already exists with VIA. Why would you replace a slower train with more stops with a train that has existing ridership?

If you are going to space them apart I think that's fine also but having the VIA train at 7:24am and then having a GO train leaving at 8am will make no sense.

If the VIA train leaves London at 7:24 the GO train should leave around 9:00 or around 6am before the VIA train. If the VIA departs after then I hope it doesn't get caught behind the GO train on its way to Union.

Counter peak services would allow people to go to Stratford for the day which is not currently possible. Extend the 8:30am train from Union to London.

Just out of interest: how do you want to run any counter-peak services as long as the (to the best of my knowledge) only location where two revenue services are currently able to meet between Georgetown and London is located 10 km South of St. Marys?

(Note that even though Guelph, Kitchener and Stratford have multiple tracks, there is only one platform track at each of these stations)

 

[ARG1]

NOBODY in London is going to spend 4 hours on a train to get to Toronto. Also it's again this Toronto-centric idea that everyone is going to Toronto and not London. Nobody in Stratford or St.Mary's commutes to Toronto but a lot commute to London and yet they are the ones not being offered any service. This will be a huge fail which I'm starting to think is what QP wants.

There's a VIA train that goes from London to Toronto in 2h15. It departs London at 6:30am and costs $42. You arrive in Toronto at 8:45 - 30 minutes before the GO train. In other words if you want to go from London to Toronto for a commute, that's the train for you.

Of course there is a way to make it appealing to Londoners and her commuters. First run smaller trains in the other direction so people can use it as a commuter route to London. Second, upgrade the tracks between KW & London as there is no way, in hell, that anyone is going to spend 2 hours to just get to KW.

While I do agree that reverse direction commutes to London are a good idea, you seem to be missing the point of this extension. This is a pilot to gauge the demand of people wanting to commute to Waterloo from London. If this even gets a modicum of success, it can prompt the government of Ontario to invest money into upgrading the tracks which can see travel times drop to almost an hour to Kitchener. It is a baby steps first approach. On top of this, I'd argue that even the current proposition is fairly appealing to some. Many jobs in Kitchener start at 8am, and a 2 hour travel time is actually fairly competitive to driving during rush hours, and especially once Kitchener GO gets rebuilt, GO train users will be able to take the train directly to Kitchener where they can transfer onto the iON and get to work from there. Don't forget that Waterloo especially is a growing tech hub with companies like Google and Amazon opening major offices and branches there, and as housing prices increase throughout the GTA, the appeal of such a train especially once the tracks are upgraded would be quite high. But for now we just have baby steps.

This line is useless to basically everyone except those commuting to KW and even then it's just not worth it. What I think you will see {assuming QP actually wants the line to succeed} is improvements in the KW-London stretch to shave at least 45 minutes off the trip. Then once hitting KW, it becomes a semi-express with no stops until Woodbine where {hopefully} they will be able to transfer onto the UPX greatly helped by the current expansion of that section. This would bring the London to Pearson section to 2 hours and that is where Londoners using this route will be going if they go to Toronto. Even VIA's slow boat to China current southern route will be faster than London-KW to Union.

Pearson? Idk about that. If someone's destination is Pearson, they're almost certainly more likely to use London Airport (which should probably be the first infill stop added to this extension later on alongside maybe New Hamburg) to fly to Pearson and connect directly to whatever flight they want, rather than sit on a train for 2+ hours first. What most likely the service pattern will be ultimately is all stops to Bramalea, and then express all the way to union with occasional intermediate stops, maybe Woodbine and Bloor.

 

[Bordercollie]

There's a VIA train that goes from London to Toronto in 2h15. It departs London at 6:30am and costs $42. You arrive in Toronto at 8:45 - 30 minutes before the GO train. In other words if you want to go from London to Toronto for a commute, that's the train for you.

While I do agree that reverse direction commutes to London are a good idea, you seem to be missing the point of this extension. This is a pilot to gauge the demand of people wanting to commute to Waterloo from London. If this even gets a modicum of success, it can prompt the government of Ontario to invest money into upgrading the tracks which can see travel times drop to almost an hour to Kitchener. It is a baby steps first approach. On top of this, I'd argue that even the current proposition is fairly appealing to some. Many jobs in Kitchener start at 8am, and a 2 hour travel time is actually fairly competitive to driving during rush hours, and especially once Kitchener GO gets rebuilt, GO train users will be able to take the train directly to Kitchener where they can transfer onto the iON and get to work from there. Don't forget that Waterloo especially is a growing tech hub with companies like Google and Amazon opening major offices and branches there, and as housing prices increase throughout the GTA, the appeal of such a train especially once the tracks are upgraded would be quite high. But for now we just have baby steps.

Pearson? Idk about that. If someone's destination is Pearson, they're almost certainly more likely to use London Airport (which should probably be the first infill stop added to this extension later on alongside maybe New Hamburg) to fly to Pearson and connect directly to whatever flight they want, rather than sit on a train for 2+ hours first. What most likely the service pattern will be ultimately is all stops to Bramalea, and then express all the way to union with occasional intermediate stops, maybe Woodbine and Bloor.

So doesn't the current VIA train provide commuter service to Kitchener?

I thought that Stratford and ST Marys are bedroom communities for people who work in London?

 

[ARG1]

So doesn't the current VIA train provide commuter service to Kitchener?

Via operates daily service departing at 7:24am arriving at Kitchener at 9:30. It costs $25 which $7 more than GO. Really the choice just depends on when your work starts. If your work starts later at around 10, Via is the better option for you, and if you work starts early at like 8, go is the better option.

I thought that Stratford and ST Marys are bedroom communities for people who work in London?

St Mary's yes, Stratford... eh?

Stratford is located sort of between London and Kitchener, but is slightly closer to Kitchener, and is directly connected to Kitchener via Highway 7/8, so I'd wager its more economically tied with it, not London (not to mention that at the moment, KW arguably has a stronger pull to itself than London).

As I said a early morning commuter train heading into London does make quite a bit of sense however its probably harder to justify than what we're getting. By extending 1 morning rush hour trip to London, all you're doing is taking an existing Kitchener train and pushing the starting point a bit further back. Its a lot cheaper to do something like this than get some new trains to do some journeys towards London that only serve these commutes and not much more.

 

[Urban Sky]

By extending 1 morning rush hour trip to London, all you're doing is taking an existing Kitchener train and pushing the starting point a bit further back. Its a lot cheaper to do something like this than get some new trains to do some journeys towards London that only serve these commutes and not much more.

Given the lack of available sidings, you can't go west of Mount Pleasant before the last eastbound GO train has left Georgetown (#3812 at 09:30). Therefore, #3209 (dep. Union at 08:34) would be the first existing westbound train you could extend beyond Mount Pleasant (it currently terminates at Bramalea).

However, that would result in something like a 12:30 arrival into London, which is when your average commuter has already his lunch break. Also, you would now have to find a new trainset for #3414 to depart at 10:40 in Mount Pleasant...

 

[Bordercollie]

Is there a

Given the lack of available sidings, you can't go west of Mount Pleasant before the last eastbound GO train has left Georgetown (#3812 at 09:30). Therefore, #3209 (dep. Union at 08:34) would be the first existing westbound train you could extend beyond Mount Pleasant (it currently terminates at Bramalea).

However, that would result in something like a 12:30 arrival into London, which is when your average commuter has already his lunch break. Also, you would now have to find a new trainset for #3414 to depart at 10:40 in Mount Pleasant...

Could you schedule it so that there is a east bound, westbound train at Kitchener?

 

[Urban Sky]

Is there a

Could you schedule it so that there is a east bound, westbound train at Kitchener?

I'm not completely sure what you mean, but my understanding is that it is not currently possible to have an eastbound and a westbound train serve Kitchener simultaneously, given that there supposedly is only one platform available...

 

[Bordercollie]

I'm not completely sure what you mean, but my understanding is that it is not currently possible to have an eastbound and a westbound train serve Kitchener simultaneously, given that there supposedly is only one platform available...

Sorry...forgot about that.

 

[Urban Sky]

Sorry...forgot about that.

No worries, it's beyond ridiculous that such a Corridor has such an absurdly low capacity due to the lack of critical infrastructure...

 

[Bordercollie]

No worries, it's beyond ridiculous that such a Corridor has such an absurdly low capacity due to the lack of critical infrastructure...

So I guess to build a second platform they would need to build a wheelchair accessible bridge or tunnel and build a platform on the other side?