[tapper of spines]

GO transit's website finally has a 'Construction and EAs' webpage:

http://gotransit.ca/PUBLIC/en/news/projectsandstudies.htm

Notably absent are many of the EAs currently underway, such as the expansion to Waterloo and all day service to Milton, but at least it's a start.

TOS

 

[Northern Light]

Bomanville Extension

My first thought on the Bomanville extension is that I'm not completely in favour of it.

My worry, as discussed concerning the never ending highway extensions and widenings in another thread is that to plow infrastructure and service out to suburban and ex-urban areas has the effect or promoting and facilitating more sprawl.

While Bomanville has boomed in the last few years, and I would certainly prefer anyone out there who commutes to Toronto to use rail; I'm worried that for every new commuter on GO we will atract 2 new residents/commuters to the area, 1/2 of whom will end up on the 401; after which there will invariably be calls to widen the highway.

***

That said; IF we are as taxpayers are going to build this, then I want to make sure we do so in a way that best facilitates intensification within those suburbs, rather than further blighting of farmland.

In reading GO's display boards, I see a glaring problem. Where's the station in Bomanville proper?

The CP line crosses Highway #2/King St. at the western edge of downtown Bomanville. But no station there. Instead, we find proposals for 1 or more stations in the middle of corn fields! That is not consistent with The Places to Grow Act!

***

Question: For those with long memories of trains in all places. I'm looking at the Google map of Oshawa and something strikes me.

I don't see any spur rail lines running into downtown Oshawa. Yet I know there was a big GM plant there a few decades back.

Is Google missing a line that is? A line that was? Just curious. Thanks for any info.

 

[tapper of spines]

My worry, as discussed concerning the never ending highway extensions and widenings in another thread is that to plow infrastructure and service out to suburban and ex-urban areas has the effect or promoting and facilitating more sprawl.

While Bomanville has boomed in the last few years, and I would certainly prefer anyone out there who commutes to Toronto to use rail; I'm worried that for every new commuter on GO we will atract 2 new residents/commuters to the area, 1/2 of whom will end up on the 401; after which there will invariably be calls to widen the highway.

Your argument seems to be one based on misplaced causality. Though obviously the existence of infrastructure allows certain zoning choices to be viable and others not, infrastructure does not, itself, lead to sprawl. Suburban sprawl is generated by poor local zoning choices. To see that this is true, go to Europe and look around. You'll see rail service that services little towns that have not turned into sprawling suburbs, because the towns have chosen, or been forced, not to become so.

When the highway commuters call for widening the highway, double the capacity of the GO line. Even most hardened highway commuters recognize that you can't keep on widening forever.

TOS

 

[unimaginative2]

The key is including the frequent GO service before the new neighbourhood is built, and building the neighbourhood around the station. Right now, we build the subdivision and then years later try to squeeze in some transit, as always slowly progressing from rush hour buses through full service buses to eventually something higher order decades down the line. It's a lot cheaper to build the rapid transit on empty land before the subdivision is built than squeezing it in a tunnel or whatever years later.

That's how they do it in Europe. They never build a new suburban neighbourhood without first extending regional rail, and the new station becomes the centre of the community. If roads are the only infrastructure when the neighbourhood is first built, they become the centre of the community.

 

[yyzhyd]

No track work has started, it'll be years unless they only plan on only running 1 train at a time, maybe 2. But has I posted here:http://www.urbantoronto.ca/showpost.php?p=263175&postcount=24 it wouldn't be worthwhile.



Once the 3rd track is finished, hopeflly by winter 2010.
But once the service is in place I expect there to be many delays. (see here:http://www.urbantoronto.ca/showpost.php?p=284534&postcount=1243)



Again no track work has commenced yet.

I saw this morning that bundles of cross-ties have been placed in the hydro corridor just south of the 407.
They're definitely moving ahead with double tracking that section.
They could, IMO run two trains to provide hourly service from Union to Unionville back and forth as it only takes 15-20min from Unionville to the Scarborough Station.
The trains would ideally pass eachother at Scarborough station where there are 3-4 tracks as part of the Lakeshore East expansion.

 

[Hipster Duck]

Remember that plan to run Talents back and forth on the Stouffville line to Scarborough station? Whatever happened to that idea?

 

[AnarchoSocialist]

Remember that plan to run Talents back and forth on the Stouffville line to Scarborough station? Whatever happened to that idea?

The Talents were going to be bought from Ottawa but given that they changed their plans quite radically and will use them for another 3 or 4 years longer than planned I imagine they decided against selling them.

I imagine another factor was that, like Ottawa's transit plan at the time, the plan was really a half assed idea. It was more 'progressive' then what was taking place, but compared to ideas of electrification, double tracking, and real regional service that now exist, it looks pretty silly.

I am not sure if Talents would be all that appropriate for most of Toronto's needs. A city like Ottawa or maybe intercity service to say Peterborough seems like a good use for them, but the kind of passenger loads GO deals with, and will continue to deal with as it grows, really require something more substantial.

 

[vegeta_skyline]

I'm not sure if you were only referring to the Barrie line, but work is definitely underway on the Stouffville line. Workers are widening the area for the track under the 407 bridge (well, the sections on both sides between the two separate 407 bridges) and running gas (and power?) just south of the bridge, which I assume will be for the switches for the passing track? I'm no expert, so if the work underway is something else, someone please correct me.

I saw this morning that bundles of cross-ties have been placed in the hydro corridor just south of the 407.
They're definitely moving ahead with double tracking that section.
They could, IMO run two trains to provide hourly service from Union to Unionville back and forth as it only takes 15-20min from Unionville to the Scarborough Station.
The trains would ideally pass each other at Scarborough station where there are 3-4 tracks as part of the Lakeshore East expansion.

Negitive.
Nothing is being done to widen the track under the 407. The work that is going on at that location is for a new bridge being built for the 407 widening.
Work being done at the Hagerman underpass is for a fiber optic cable being laid. New tracks are simply for replacement of the old tracks.

All day service on the Stouffville line is to extend to Mount Joy and not to Unionville. In either case there is no need for double tracking the line in that area. Because with an all-day service (hourly or less frequent) trains won't be meeting each other at that point.

Mount Joy is 38.7 km from Union
making all stops from Mount Joy to Union takes 49 to 54 minutes.
The half way point time wise to Union is appox. when trains are going under the 401 bridge.

Unionville is 30.6 km from Union
making all stops from Unionville to Union takes 35 to 38 minutes.
The half way point time wise to Union in this scenario is just before Kennedy station.

If they were going to build a passing track it would have to be at one of those locations. And thats only if they are going to use 2 trains, they may just begin all-day service with one train as they do it now on the Gerogetown line. The most frequent service that would be provided for on the line would be hourly. This would require two train on the line at the same time and hence at a minimum the passing tracks at the above locations.

This all day service will run in-between the last train down in the morning and the first train up in the evening. Because under the current method of control for the line - OCS(non-signaled track), it would be extremely complicated and difficult to maintain any type of schedule while operating trains in both directions at the same time. Trust me, its hard enough run it on schedule with trains going to same way using that system lol. Now of they were crazy enough to try and run a reverse peak all day service on the line, then maybe you could use a passing track at that locations. But you'd still have to first build a passing track at one of the other locations that I mentioned. (I believe that they should two-track the either line, but thats another argument for another time...)

However I don't believe that Transport Canada will allow them to operate a two-way all day service with high speed passenger trains with that frequency and carrying that many passengers in OCS territory anyway. Simply because of the inherit dangers of the system.

 

[yyzhyd]

Negitive.
Nothing is being done to widen the track under the 407. The work that is going on at that location is for a new bridge being built for the 407 widening.
Work being done at the Hagerman underpass is for a fiber optic cable being laid. New tracks are simply for replacement of the old tracks.

All day service on the Stouffville line is to extend to Mount Joy and not to Unionville. In either case there is no need for double tracking the line in that area. Because with an all-day service (hourly or less frequent) trains won't be meeting each other at that point.

Mount Joy is 38.7 km from Union
making all stops from Mount Joy to Union takes 49 to 54 minutes.
The half way point time wise to Union is appox. when trains are going under the 401 bridge.

Unionville is 30.6 km from Union
making all stops from Unionville to Union takes 35 to 38 minutes.
The half way point time wise to Union in this scenario is just before Kennedy station.

If they were going to build a passing track it would have to be at one of those locations. And thats only if they are going to use 2 trains, they may just begin all-day service with one train as they do it now on the Gerogetown line. The most frequent service that would be provided for on the line would be hourly. This would require two train on the line at the same time and hence at a minimum the passing tracks at the above locations.

This all day service will run in-between the last train down in the morning and the first train up in the evening. Because under the current method of control for the line - OCS(non-signaled track), it would be extremely complicated and difficult to maintain any type of schedule while operating trains in both directions at the same time. Trust me, its hard enough run it on schedule with trains going to same way using that system lol. Now of they were crazy enough to try and run a reverse peak all day service on the line, then maybe you could use a passing track at that locations. But you'd still have to first build a passing track at one of the other locations that I mentioned. (I believe that they should two-track the either line, but thats another argument for another time...)

However I don't believe that Transport Canada will allow them to operate a two-way all day service with high speed passenger trains with that frequency and carrying that many passengers in OCS territory anyway. Simply because of the inherit dangers of the system.

Thanks for the info... even if it's disappointing for me as a passenger on the Stouffville Line.

 

[vegeta_skyline]

Believe me, I wish I was wrong.
But it is going to happen, they actually have a material plan in place now.
In fact, like I said they could start all day service tomorrow on the Stouffville.
Problem is it would only come around once every 2 hours and it could only run in between the rush periods, far from good enough.

The issue I believe is that there is only so much in terms of capital projects that GO can take on at once. Stouffville's time will come, maybe sooner rather than later if the government opened up the flood gates... the federal government that is, for all their talk, the action has been comparatively little to date.

 

[yyzhyd]

Could they double track all the way from Kennedy to Unionville ... not sure if the ROW is wide enough?
If they could, would they wait until the Sheppard crossing is upgraded as part of Transit City?

 

[Second_in_pie]

Believe me, I wish I was wrong.
But it is going to happen, they actually have a material plan in place now.
In fact, like I said they could start all day service tomorrow on the Stouffville.
Problem is it would only come around once every 2 hours and it could only run in between the rush periods, far from good enough.

The issue I believe is that there is only so much in terms of capital projects that GO can take on at once. Stouffville's time will come, maybe sooner rather than later if the government opened up the flood gates... the federal government that is, for all their talk, the action has been comparatively little to date.

Unfortunately, all-day Go Train service isn't much of an improvement over bus. Actually, with little traffic, I'm pretty sure that the bus is just as fast or even faster than the Train, though it does miss a couple stops. Let's be honest, our Go Trains aren't the speediest things in the world. The system will need to be electrified, maybe trains switched to a lighter rolling stock, and well as passenger-specific trackage, and hopefully integrated fares.

Also, once the system gets electrified and other things changed, they'll be able to add in some more stops because of decreased acceleration-deceleration times. They might still haven an express train that does the current stops only, but I'm pretty sure more stops wouldn't have as much of an impact with lighter electric trains. Now is the time for Go to make some changes to the system, and thing will be much better after that.

 

[Dan416]

I couldn't agree more about electrifying, lighter rolling stock, and express/local trains.

 

[Hipster Duck]

I imagine another factor was that, like Ottawa's transit plan at the time, the plan was really a half assed idea. It was more 'progressive' then what was taking place, but compared to ideas of electrification, double tracking, and real regional service that now exist, it looks pretty silly.

I am not sure if Talents would be all that appropriate for most of Toronto's needs. A city like Ottawa or maybe intercity service to say Peterborough seems like a good use for them, but the kind of passenger loads GO deals with, and will continue to deal with as it grows, really require something more substantial.

I don't think it was a silly idea; on the contrary, I thought it was brilliant. I agree that electrification and real S-bahn style service is the ultimate goal, but in the interim, the Talents were a very cheap, versatile fix. Don't forget they can be coupled to one another to increase capacity very easily. It also provided an alternative rapid transit service through Scarborough almost parallel (and indeed, connecting to) the RT for some of its length. In some ways, if there would have been more frequent Lakeshore GO service between Scarborough and Union, it would have formed an embryonic precursor to a DRL.

 

[Platform 27]

Unfortunately, all-day Go Train service isn't much of an improvement over bus. Actually, with little traffic, I'm pretty sure that the bus is just as fast or even faster than the Train, though it does miss a couple stops. Let's be honest, our Go Trains aren't the speediest things in the world.

In general, the trains are ever-so-slightly faster than buses moving unimpeded by traffic. Whatever time savings buses offer are realised by having fewer stops. For instance, the Hamilton QEW express bus running outside rush hour is typically about 10 minutes faster than a train would be because it goes non-stop point-to-point.

In the case of the Stouffville corridor, the scheduled travel times from Markham GO Station to Union are 45 minutes by morning train and 45 minutes by mid-afternoon bus. The bus, though, skips the three Scarborough stations and goes nonstop along the DVP.

Especially for service periods where a large portion of the ridership isn't 'burb-to-core workers, having those stops with their connectivity to destinations like Pacific Mall and Scarborough Town Centre (plus to the B-D subway and the eventual Sheppard LRT) would be a tremendous asset to the corridor's usefulness. When all-day rail comes to the corridor, they become part of the picture without adding any time to the Markham-Union run. Perhaps they could also consider adding a stop at Scarborough GO Station and/or Danforth GO Station for the purpose of allowing a neatly-scheduled transfer to Oshawa-bound Lakeshore East trains there?

Anyway, while speed is important, don't underestimate the power of the steel wheel factor in driving up ridership. Not to rehash some tired old streetcar/bus arguments, but there's an undeniable snob factor associated with trains that makes them appeal to lukewarm transit riders in the 'burbs in a way that buses never can---even if the seats on the buses are actually more comfortable.

GO was completely shocked when switching from buses to trains on the Barrie run sent ridership way higher than their estimates had suggested. Yes, they chopped a bit of time off the run, eliminated a transfer, and removed the variability of traffic from the schedule (especially important running through the snowbelt in the winter months). But more than anything they improved the sex appeal. Joe Mid-level Banker who used to drive his Volvo from his snout-house on a Barrie cul-de-sac to First Canadian Place feels a bus is beneath him. Not so about the train. Likewise, Mrs. Upwardly-mobile Wu in Unionville wouldn't dream of taking a bus to go shopping for the day, but a train is an option.

It's also worth realizing that mid-day traffic jams are coming to the 400s with a vengeance in the next five years. The QEW already flirts with mid-day gridlock once in a while as-is; the Hamilton Express will be one of the lucky few GO bus routes to dodge the traffic bullet because of the soon-to-open HOV lane on its route. Elsewhere, though, I bet a lot of the off-peak GO buses are going to start sloooooowing down in the next few years.