[lenaitch]

If you ask me I would prefer all of Toronto's shipping be moved to Hamilton or elsewhere. Redpath has no place right on the waterfront of the downtown.

Redpath has absolutely no plans to move, but they really should. The value of the land they sit on is huge, they should sell and set up shop in Hamilton instead.

And that is the root problem - new land use thinking they are the higher morality and that legal, legitimate and pre-existing uses are no longer appropriate. Redpath has every right to be on the water - they are a marine-dependent industry and has been there since long before most everything around it. I would think if the people of Toronto truly want an industry to leave then they should pay for it, and own the reputation of a city that throws out business. Even if they did go, you know another condo would go up right on the water, just like every other square inch of the shoreline. I often wonder if other major urban areas have such a disdain for industry and non-passenger transportation and commerce as the GTA. Something that Toronto feels to be not appropriate (read: beneath) is just fine 'someplace else'. Toronto's solid waste goes 'someplace else' and the vast majority of its energy, food and building materials come from 'someplace else'. I realize we are in a post-industrial world, but we still all consume 'stuff'. So long as we are content that all of our stuff comes from someplace else then, of course industry is no longer needed.

Sorry for the rant.

 

[innsertnamehere]

I'm not saying that it is "beneath" Toronto. I would be fine with it moving to another port in the city, if there was one. I'm just saying that industrial uses conflict with the type of uses we are seeing develop around it and what we are spending billions (literally) to produce along our downtown waterfront.

Industrial uses have a place in this city. Just not a 5 minute walk from Union Station. In the case of other industrial uses along the waterfront, most have long since vacated to other locations as they did not depend on the port. Redpath has stuck around as there is no other spot for them to go in the city.

Hamilton is a better location as their port facilities are in an actual industrial area nowhere close to downtown. The large shipping trucks can come in and out without having to drive over the Martin Goodman trail and several streetcar tracks. The plant can emit as many bad smells as it wants as it will just mix with the smell of the coke mills at Stelco. They can have as much land as they feel they need to operate their facility. Etc., Etc., Etc.

Regardless, they aren't moving, it is all speculation.

 

[44 North]

Even if they did 'move', I doubt the corp behind them would consider building a new refinery and port facility in Hamilton. Or anywhere north of Baja peninsula. Probably consolidate current operations, or at best build something new in Mexico. Have our sugar refined, stored, packaged, then shipped to us by truck like the growing list of other things.

Re: its benefits, one could argue that a healthy downtown has a balanced mix of all land uses - including some heavy industry. Personally like it there just cuz the public can see large ships and port operations, even sit in Muskoka chairs to view them. If the alternative to Redpath was a condo, I'd much rather Redpath. May even prefer leaving the site derelict. At least it'd be something cool for kids to explore.

 

[mdrejhon]

While Hamilton would welcome Redpath's business with a royal red carpet (there's already a new $45 million dollar flour mill that opened on one of those "non-steel" piers), I don't think Redpath would be moving.

Hamilton Port Authority's (in team with GoC/etc) Randle Reef $139M remeditation/cleanup when complete, potentially brings a fair bit of (proposed) container port space which massively increases cargo in/out capabilities of Hamilton, even further. More non-steel industry is developing in Hamilton that will need freight containers, and could use this expanded cargo space. Not yet set in stone, but it's one of the possibilties as steel decreases in industry share.

But barring that:

I think it's nice to keep it in Toronto. They could also integrate into the condoification a little bit: What they could do is fancy up their facility with a mural on one side and an expanded museum with a lovely restaurant/facility (with sweets made out of RedPath sugar), connected to a nice bricked urban enhancement connecting to expanded waterfront trail, etc. It would be good community relations with enroaching condos and the future waterfront LRT, and Ports Lands. It is not a particularly 'dirty' industry (as long as its main exhaust is simply sugar smells, and not other industrials), and sugar refinery smells are sometimes liked similar or better than hops from an urban refinery. Whether it's YTZ jets or RedPath smells -- RedPath sweet smells is probably preferable over a Gardiner view with dirty salty fog spray in winter staining the glass walls of your balcony and windows every slushy winter night. Or Cinnabon at the old Union.

 

[rbt]

Hamilton is a better location as their port facilities are in an actual industrial area nowhere close to downtown.

If RedPath (now owned by ASR based in Florida) ceases production in Toronto they won't be moving to Hamilton. At best they would increase production at their Belleville plant.

Most likely they would simply move production to their plant in Belize which has about 5x the the production capacity of all Redpath facilities in Canada combined; then ship refined product by north by train.

 

[aquateam]

I think it's nice to keep it in Toronto. They could also integrate into the condoification a little bit: What they could do is fancy up their facility with a mural on one side and an expanded museum with a lovely restaurant/facility (with sweets made out of RedPath sugar), connected to a nice bricked urban enhancement connecting to expanded waterfront trail, etc. It would be good community relations with enroaching condos and the future waterfront LRT, and Ports Lands. It is not a particularly 'dirty' industry (as long as its main exhaust is simply sugar smells, and not other industrials), and sugar refinery smells are sometimes liked similar or better than hops from an urban refinery. Whether it's YTZ jets or RedPath smells -- RedPath sweet smells is probably preferable over a Gardiner view with dirty salty fog spray in winter staining the glass walls of your balcony and windows every slushy winter night. Or Cinnabon at the old Union.

They could do something like these concrete cement silos in Vancouver:

 

[lenaitch]

I'm not saying that it is "beneath" Toronto. I would be fine with it moving to another port in the city, if there was one. I'm just saying that industrial uses conflict with the type of uses we are seeing develop around it and what we are spending billions (literally) to produce along our downtown waterfront.

Industrial uses have a place in this city. Just not a 5 minute walk from Union Station. In the case of other industrial uses along the waterfront, most have long since vacated to other locations as they did not depend on the port. Redpath has stuck around as there is no other spot for them to go in the city.

Hamilton is a better location as their port facilities are in an actual industrial area nowhere close to downtown. The large shipping trucks can come in and out without having to drive over the Martin Goodman trail and several streetcar tracks. The plant can emit as many bad smells as it wants as it will just mix with the smell of the coke mills at Stelco. They can have as much land as they feel they need to operate their facility. Etc., Etc., Etc.

Regardless, they aren't moving, it is all speculation.

ummm - Toronto Harbour is the only port the city has and the proximity of ports to city centres is common throughout the world given historic growth and development. It would seem that if Redpath is incompatible with its surrounding, including its need for trucks (perhaps they could switch to Uber or bike couriers), then that is the fault of poor city planning. Most 'world class' cities didn't allow their commercial ports to be cannibalized by developers. But agree, all speculation.

If RedPath (now owned by ASR based in Florida) ceases production in Toronto they won't be moving to Hamilton. At best they would increase production at their Belleville plant.

Most likely they would simply move production to their plant in Belize which has about 5x the the production capacity of all Redpath facilities in Canada combined; then ship refined product by north by train.

I tend to agree, if for no other reason than our history of industry moving out, not moving around. Their Belleville facility is a processing plant only - no marine or rail connection (next to Hwy 401). I don't know enough about the politics and logistics of shipping bulk cargo from Central America through Mexico. If they are now Florida-owned (thanks for that - didn't know) then it would seem Florida would be a logical corporate alternative.

 

[Allandale25]

Seems like this is the update for this.

Discussion paper PDF here and there are maps: https://files.ontario.ca/mto-toward...ation-plan-discussion-paper-en-2021-06-29.pdf

NEWS RELEASE Ontario Releases Discussion Paper to Improve Transportation Vision for Greater Golden Horseshoe​ Province Seeks Public Input to Inform Near-and Long-term Actions June 29, 2021 Ministry of Transportation
	TORONTO – Today, the Ontario government released a discussion paper for public feedback that will inform the province's first transportation plan for the Greater Golden Horseshoe. Ontario is building a better transportation system to connect communities and keep goods and people moving across the province, including in Ontario’s economic engine, the Greater Golden Horseshoe. “We have a long-term vision for the Greater Golden Horseshoe that takes us to 2051, built on connected transportation that’s safe, seamless and accessible,” said Caroline Mulroney, Minister of Transportation. “This discussion paper is an important opportunity to gain further insights that will help shape a better transportation network for our province's future.” The Greater Golden Horseshoe is an integrated economic region and its communities are diverse with different transportation needs. The discussion paper considers many new challenges including economic transitions, new technologies and shifting demographics that will alter the way people use the transportation system. The paper outlines initiatives and concepts that address mobility in the region, are designed to meet collective goals and transportation challenges of the future and sets out priority near-term actions as a foundation to achieve this vision. Through a consultation posting on the Environmental Registry of Ontario as well as an online feedback form, the Ontario government is seeking public input on ways to achieve our vision, including: Collaboration, coordination and new ways of working together to align our actions New and innovative approaches to policy solutions and programs New ways to partner, procure and deliver infrastructure The proposed plan would help guide and align decisions and investments over the long-term to ensure other levels of government, transportation agencies, industry, local businesses and other service providers are working collaboratively to shape the transportation system. The province will carefully consider and incorporate feedback received over the next few months as we work towards releasing the Greater Golden Horseshoe Transportation Plan later in 2021.
	Quick Facts​ The deadline for providing feedback on the Greater Golden Horseshoe Transportation Plan is August 28, 2021. The Greater Golden Horseshoe is the urban region centred around the City of Toronto and extends from Waterloo, Wellington and Brant County from the west, Peterborough and Northumberland from the east, Simcoe County to the north, with Haldimand and Niagara to the south. From September 11 to October 26, 2020, over 2,200 people completed an online survey to help inform the province’s future work on developing a 2051 transportation plan for the region. By 2051, population and employment are forecasted to grow from 10 million to 14.9 million people, and 4.5 million to 7 million jobs, respectively.
	Additional Resources​ GGH transportation plan web page

 

[Northern Light]

Seems like this is the update for this.

Discussion paper PDF here and there are maps: https://files.ontario.ca/mto-toward...ation-plan-discussion-paper-en-2021-06-29.pdf

First observation, following the link under 'additional resources'.............

IT people need to proof read.................

Ahem...

Not the proper way to code!

 

[Northern Light]

Next.......from the discussion paper linked above; key slides:

The Big Ideas:

- Ontario Line Loop connecting multiple lines and nodes, including Pearson.

- New GO route (rail) which connects all corridors without going through Union Station

 

[innsertnamehere]

Looking at highway infrastructure plans:

Holy managed lanes batman! Interesting to see them on the municipally owned Gardiner and DVP - I wonder if MTO is expecting those to be conversions or widenings. They would obviously have to be conversions on some parts (namely the Gardiner through downtown), but widenings are possible on the DVP and etobicoke portions of the Gardiner, if unlikely. I would be supportive of conversions here, especially closer to downtown. The DVP could use with some geometry improvements that would really improve capacity without a new lane necessarily, and even a new HOV lane could probably be accommodated north of Eglinton fairly easily.

This is the first I've ever seen of MTO contemplating widening the 401 through central Toronto, on this map from the 427 to the 404. Now that would be an interesting project, with quite the price tag. I feel like it would be very politically challenging too, depending on proposed scope (just a new HOV? or more than that?). I would be supportive of adding perhaps 2 HOT lanes in each direction being added in a "hyper express" pattern. I expect tolls would basically be required to pay for the thing.

surprised to see the 404 extension all the way to Highway 12. Not necessary in my opinion, at most it's only needed to make the connection to Highway 48, and you can otherwise probably be fine with 4-laning 48 without the full freeway buildout.

a couple of gaps on the wider outer rim highway infrastructure - including the planned RIRO to Lindsay and upgrading Highway 11 from Orillia to Barrie. Highway 11 especially is probably going to need that work on the plan's horizon period, but 35 might be able to get away with a few passing lanes. Highway 12 near Beaverton is also needed and not shown, despite Highway 9 being shown as widened.

 

[Undead]

^I hope any widening of the central 401 is reserved for express busses or some sort of regional rail, not new car lanes. I remember @Northern Light mulling a similar idea in the fantasy map section.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Looking at the transit plans:

Some details are challenging to see due to the low resolution. It generally includes what we would expect - Existing dedicated and planned projects including the subway plan, Toronto LRTs (waterfront east and Eglinton East), etc. Includes several BRT routes as well, a handful of which appear new.

The big additions include the "oshawa to Burlington transit" corridor. This appears to generally follow the 407, dipping down along the 427 and 403 to hit Downtown Mississauga and Pearson. Really interested to see how the idea plays out - is it a return of the ALRT concept from the 1980's? The routing is illustrated as one large "arc" across the GTA, but it seems to be designed to still hit several key growth areas, including North Oakville, Seaton, etc. I don't think they expect to just follow the existing highway corridors perfectly.

The "Ontario Line Loop" is very challenging to make out. It seems to not be quite a complete loop, running from Kipling north to Pearson, up along the Highway 7 corridor to the 404, then down along Don Mills to the existing Ontario Line. A new transit line is shown running from Port Credit to Exhibition along Lake Shore, but it's not clear if this would be the Ontario Line or Waterfront West. There appears to be a gap between Bloor and Lakeshore though, with no new transit corridor illustrated.

Interestingly the Jane LRT still seems to be illustrated.


Overall the transit plan is rather disappointing. A couple of big moves, particularly the Oshawa to Burlington corridor, but nothing crazy. It's mostly just building out the existing transit capital plan through to 2031 and a few small additions after that.

Metrolinx is going to have to think bigger after the current capital cycle runs it's course in 10 years. There are some obvious low-hanging fruit to grab onto in the 2030's like an Ontario Line extension and the Sheppard line (in some form), but overall there is a serious lack of thought on what transit expansion will look like a decade from now. The Oshawa-Burlington Corridor and Ontario Line loop are good starts, but more thought needs to occur on a higher level on what corridors could be useful 15-20 years from now.

 

[innsertnamehere]

^I hope any widening of the central 401 is reserved for express busses or some sort of regional rail, not new car lanes. I remember @Northern Light mulling a similar idea in the fantasy map section.

It may have to be a sort of elevated structure a la some HOT lanes in Texas.

Texas has some creative solutions for freeway expansion in cramped right of ways, though expensive, which necessitates the tolls. Still interesting to think of. I recall I-635 in Dallas with the trenched express lanes as being an interesting example, though there are others.

The politics of widening the 401 through central Toronto will likely be terrible though - I imagine the City would oppose it, even if it is for HOT lanes. MTO managed to squeeze in a few extra lanes here and there on the central 401 over the last 15 years quietly through their reconstruction programs, but I'm not sure how an explicit widening program would fare.

I always figured MTO would try to address the 401 from the 427 to the 409 as that's pretty severely congested and there is a bit of space for expansion there, but I'm surprised to see them contemplating widening right through Toronto.

 

[Northern Light]

IF growth is going to be allowed (encouraged) to hit the levels I believe (greater than the current 2051 forecasts), this plan seems woefully inadequate.

I would argue for (in no particular order) (list not exhaustive)

- GO Rail in the 401 ROW, at-grade where practical, but diving into to tunnels to take stations out of the ROW and hit key nodes. (ie. Pearson, Sheppard West Stn and/or new station to the south, NYCC, STC etc. linking in to the existing GO Sub at Pickering. Residual Express Lanes become Truck Only. All lanes tolled.

-GO Rail in the 407 ROW, similarly tunneling out at points to reach key nodes

-GO Rail Hub in Hamilton with commuter rail connections to Brantford and Niagara, independent of Toronto services)

- Sheppard West Subway to serve intensified Downsview lands and provide link to Wilson Yard.

- Line 2 extension to Sherway Gardens Area minimum, possibly further extension to Dixie or points west

- GO Rail connection Milton Corridor - 407 Corridor/York Sub Corridor (possible connection to DT Brampton, at minimum a connection at Bramalea)

- GO Midtown across the CP mainline.

****

All of which would be hugely expensive; and brings into question how much growth pays for itself when the expenses are properly calculated.