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I'd never bet broadly against Toronto vs Hamilton in terms of appreciation, but the comparison is like comparing New York to Cleveland. Otherwise, posts like this are just kind of sad in their ignorance. Top city in construction jobs created, busiest Canadian Great Lakes port, rated the top city to invest in in Ontario (3rd in Canada), top ten by Financial Times in North America for investment, building boom both in terms of urban condos and suburban housing. Hamilton is anything but desolate or decaying...and you reference Waterloo? Hamilton has a really unique position in terms of urban offers and suburban convenience that Waterloo cannot match. That's not to say Waterloo isn't a nice place to live, but they are incomparable, in terms of economy, trajectory and lifestyle.
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Right. Hamilton has more construction jobs than Toronto. Right.

Please. Hamilton is worse than Detroit because it has yet to hit bottom.
 
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Corrections

radioheadmike said:
My wife and I have considered downtown Hamilton as it resembles the hot neighborhoods of downtown Toronto before the gentrification.

In its current state, you do require balls of steel to live in the core (high risk high reward situation atm).

Current issues:
1. A lot more "crazies" than regular people in the core, especially when the sun goes down -- This is simply untrue. Downtown streets are full of life, especially in the Summer! Hamilton Fringe Fests' attendance has doubled in just two years, and SuperCrawl brings in 100,000+ visitors every September, not to mention the monthly art crawls which brings hundreds of ppl downtown (who don't normally come) every second Friday of the month!

2. The homeless/beggars in the core are threatening, large (well built), unpredictable men. They are aggressive and will threaten you if you don't give them pocket change -- WHAT?! You're kidding right? Most are elderly, and there are some Youth who usually just sit on a corner. There is one mid-aged man who will wave you down for change even if you have your earphones on, but that's about as aggressive as it gets! LOL

3. Pollution that you can smell and see. Hard to breathe on a hot summer day -- Hamilton's air quality has drastically improved since all but one coke oven (for steel) has closed. I'll admit we do have a Canola Oil refinery that can smell of canola oil on a hot summer day (usually smog days), usually just in the North End close to it.

4. Not many jobs - commuting is a must -- This is absolutely false!! Only 3% (Three Percent) of Hamiltonians commute to Toronto for work, and 70% of Hamiltonians work within the city (AND 38,000 ppl commute INTO Hamilton for work!!). SOURCE. In fact, as Toronto replaces manufacturing warehouses with condos (see Kodak, Mr Christie, Celestica etc) Hamilton's manufacturing sector has grown (with the additional of the Maple Leafs Meat Processing Plant, and Canada Breads bakery which left Toronto for Hamilton)

5. No subway, owning a car is a must -- The HSR (Hamilton Street Railway) is not as good as it should, this is true. If you live in the Lower City (not the mountain), you can catch a bus going east or west every 8-15 mins. In the Suburbs, yes, you will have to wait 15-30 mins for a bus.. which is unacceptable. HOWEVER, The Province is building our B-Line LRT along Main/King which will ensure a train every 5-10 mins. Phase 2 is the A-Line, from the Airport to the JamesNorth GO Station via UpperJames and James -- connecting the Mountain to Downtown)

What we like about Hamilton:
1. Affordable century old homes -- Very true! Can still find some for under $200K!

2. The only urban city next to Toronto. Not a suburban wasteland (Mississauga, Brampton etc…) -- Also very true! Has better bones than Ottawa & London (ON) even! Full of amazing hoods!!

3. Geographically much more beautiful than Toronto -- The Escarpment is amazing, and a West-facing view shows the most spectacular of Sunsets!!

4. Go access (two stations in the core) -- TH&B (for Express Trains, as well as direct conectios to GO Buses, Greyhound buses, Coach Canada buses to everywhere in Ontario and some US Cities) as well as the JamesNorth GO which is set to open "sometime" in 2015.

5. A lot of independent shops, restaurants (Hamilton downtown resembles the Junction area in Toronto) -- which makes Hamilton affordable, and more importantly, UNIQUE! Our food scene is absolutely AMAZING!!!
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Just correcting a LOT of misconceptions (see bolded rebuttals)
 
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jeff316 said:
Hamilton is truly awesome. has everything that Toronto has but with fewer repeats of the same thing and no lineups. The library system is fantastic. Farmer's market is actually useful - you can shop there, not blow your wallet to bits, and come home with real groceries, not just artsy-curios and specialty mustards. You can live an urban life and when you need the convenience of suburbia it’s right there, 15 minutes up the road. Hamilton is also well-placed to enjoy Buffalo, south-western Ontario, and Toronto. It is the perfect location. It's got the university and Copps so lots of entertainment and shows and sports. From 1998-2009, Hamilton was Ontario’s best-kept secret.

But it is not 2009 anymore. There are downsides.



As a former Hamiltonian (now living in Toronto), this is the most accurate pro/con list I've seen, minus the pollution which is vastly overstated based on stereotypes.

To some extent, an emerging problem is that the prices aren't that great of a deal anymore (particularly if you add in the commuting costs of Go Train plus TTC), unless you're willing to live away from the GO Train or in a neighbourhood that is sketchy. And when I mean sketchy, I don't mean Toronto sketchy. I mean hookers on your driveway sketchy. I mean sleeping stranger in your backyard sketchy. I mean don't go into that laundromat after 8 PM sketchy. I mean schools you're not sure you want your kids to go to sketchy.

But the real problem in the Hammer is jobs. There are fewer of them. There is less variety. If you find one, it is usually not as well-paying as it would be in Toronto and it's likely one of the only available jobs in your field, which means you're one job-loss away from financial insolvency.

Another downside is its suburbanism. Yes, downtown Hamilton is relatively dense and its attracting lots of independent shops and stores and it feels like you're living in The Junction. But imagine The Junction, stretched out over double the land mass, surrounded by suburbs and divided up by big, four lane streets, with no streetcar, no subway, and limited bussing.

People see the cutsey shops on Locke, or the north end or even Ottawa St and envision family walks to shops and a pedestrian life with a paper bag of groceries in their arms but that's not the case. The things that make Hamilton a bit edgy aren't useful - you generally don't shop at the Caribbean mini mart, don't eat frequently at the Portuguese Association, don't spend evenings at the Navy Hall and only need a few things from the bakery, coffee shop or store that sells organic honey and candles.

You need a car and you need if for everything. The places you need to visit week in, week out are a drive-away, often out in a suburban power centre. The places you want to eat at are spread out across the city. You're not a walk away from a hardware store. If you're going to do any decent amount of shopping at Jackson Square or the Farmer's Market, you're not going to be able to do it via the HSR. I mean, look where the hippy-dippy food co-op located - a place where the parking lot is bigger than the store, right on York Boulevard, walkable for the residents of about three streets and that's it.

If you're self-employed or can work from home and you'd don't mind a suburban lifestyle, or you feel really secure in a job that's in Hamilton, take the leap to Hamilton and you'll never ever ever regret it. I miss it all the time, we go back at least once a month.

If you don't want to use your car all the time for everything, or you need to come in to Toronto more than twice a week, don't bother.
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What is going on w/ all the misconceptions here!?

I live in Hamilton again (I have had two stints in Toronto and have always come back).
I do not drive, nor do I own a car. Therefore, no you do not need a car to live here! In fact, SoBi Bike Share is starting up and has a fleet (apparently) larger than Toronto.

Cutesy shops are useless? I live in the Corktown Neighbourhood, which is lined with Restos (both chain & indies), 24-hr Convenience Markets (similar to Raba), several popular Pubs and Bars along Augusta Street, and several parks and a popular elementary school (newly built - aka not 'too sketchy' for kids).
No one who lives Downtown shops on Locke St LOL. Only tourists and visitors go there b/c, yes, most are useless.
The stores on James North however are completely functional (as my office is on this street as well). Every day I'm able to get food, or office items for my work without problems. And no, I'm not talkin artwork! LOL
Corktown also has the TH&B (GO) Station, which means I'm literally 50mins from Union Station (approx same amount of time as a TTC trip from Rexdale to Union).

Come to SuperCrawl Sep 11-14 2014, James North between King & Burlington Street. GO Transit even runs a special SuperCrawl Train, so you can all be part of the 100,000+ visitors that take in the awesome event every year!
OH, and unlike any Toronto Festivals, you can actually walk around freely in Hamilton and not feel like a Cow on a slow-moving conveyer belt heading toward the killing-floor. I've been to Taste of Danforth and Italia Fest or whatev on College St and it's terrible! Mile-Long line-ups for everything!! LOL
 
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OK, to whoever said a Hamilton House is not a savings over a Junction House (which don't forget doesn't have a streetcar, or easy access to the subway) is (again) completely wrong and I'm convinced is just making stuff up now (?!)

A Hamilton Neighbourhood similar to the Junction would be Ottawa St (in terms of distance-from-downtown, access-to-transit, housing stock, and kitch factor).
According to MLS (realtor.ca), a typical 3 Bed + 2 Bath house around Ottawa St (Hamilton) is ~ $175,000-$289,000.
Junction (Toronto - same 3 Bed + 2 Bath) go for ~ $700,000- $2,000,000.

And despite what the CN Tower says, those values will absolutely rise as Hamilton's housing prices continue their correction, and when the B-Line LRT stop opens @ Main & Ottawa!
 
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You can't replace the Junction with anything--the architecture, history, diversity of people and businesses, and the sense of community and identity all make it stand out. The Junction is a vibrant city neighbourhood that's steeped in history. I don't know the Ottawa Street neighbourhood well, but it doesn't look to even have a Victorian main street like Dundas Street West that's lined with attractive multi-storey buildings. The houses are a mix of bungalows and simple siding houses--noticeably lower end versus the Victorian and Edwardian homes of the Junction. A ten minute bus ride to the subway isn't bad transit access. The neighbourhood also has the 512 streetcar at its north end.
 
Long Island Mike said:
This also reminds me of Baltimore-Washington in which the two cities are virtually the same distance apart (40 miles)... ...LI MIKE
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So wait, let me get this straight; Baltimore is 40 miles from Washington, and Washington is 40 miles from Baltimore? Who knew?! Amazing how that works! Yes, virtually the same distance apart, but only virtually. Your real world miles may vary. Haha. :D
 
junctionist said:
You can't replace the Junction with anything--the architecture, history, diversity of people and businesses, and the sense of community and identity all make it stand out. The Junction is a vibrant city neighbourhood that's steeped in history. I don't know the Ottawa Street neighbourhood well, but it doesn't look to even have a Victorian main street like Dundas Street West that's lined with attractive multi-storey buildings. The houses are a mix of bungalows and simple siding houses--noticeably lower end versus the Victorian and Edwardian homes of the Junction. A ten minute bus ride to the subway isn't bad transit access. The neighbourhood also has the 512 streetcar at its north end.
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Here are some pics of Ottawa st - http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=135905

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=141099 (house prices range from 280k - 350k in the St. Clair neighborhood which is close to Ottawa St)
 
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DC83 said:
What is going on w/ all the misconceptions here!?
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Well I'm not sure I'd call them misconceptions since you've failed to refute most of them, and have admitted that many are accurate. Look, I love Hamilton but let's have an honest discussion free of emotional attachment. The light rail line is 50/50 chance to get built. Car ownership rates are higher in Hamilton than average and than Toronto. Poverty rates are also higher. Average incomes lower, on all levels. Homeless and street people are more noticeable in Hamilton, particularly in the core, particularly compared to Toronto where density is higher and the homeless population is more spread out.

But what you've missed here is the context of the discussion.

The context here is people trading Toronto for Hamilton.

The people who are going to do that are more than likely to :
a) still work out of Toronto (significant commuting costs)
b) move to a more central location (more expensive, The Junction vs. Ottawa street is not comparable because anyone that left The Junction for Hamilton is not going to move that far out, they're going to see The Junction in downtown Hamilton)
c) base their perceptions of Hamilton as non-residents (on the one-off festivals, Locke-style street shopping) and
d) base their perceptions of Toronto as residents (lower taxes, better transit, residential experience).

As a former Hamiltonian, I think we can effectively plug the city (because it is awesome!) without resorting to mindless boosterism.
 
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radioheadmike said:
4. Not many jobs - commuting is a must
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Hamilton's unemployment rate has been consistently lower than Toronto's for a number of years now. However, I think I get what you are saying... Greater downtown Hamilton has a very high unemployment rate and very little job growth. So if you want to live an urban life in the Hammer, you will probably be commuting (and likely via car) to your job in outer parts of the city (or beyond).
 
radioheadmike said:
Here are some pics of Ottawa st - http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=135905

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=141099 (house prices range from 280k - 350k in the St. Clair neighborhood which is close to Ottawa St)
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The range right now in St. Clair is $190,000 - $730,000. But if you throw out those two outliers, you'd get $245,000 on the low end and $360,000 at the top. I do have to say that none of the properties listed are actually from the prime street, St. Clair Blvd. (between Delaware & Cumberland). Those houses typically cost $450,000 and up. Same goes for the beauties on Delaware Street too. Currently, there aren't too many listings available on the MLS in that neighborhood that would compel someone to move from Toronto (in my humble opinion).
 
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radioheadmike said:
Here are some pics of Ottawa st - http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=135905

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=141099 (house prices range from 280k - 350k in the St. Clair neighborhood which is close to Ottawa St)
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Thanks for those links. Ottawa Street seems to have a decent retail strip, and the residential streets of St. Clair could pass for the Junction. Still, the Junction combines great housing and a thriving strip that looks and feels more like a downtown strip than Ottawa Street. I see a lot of value in those neighbourhoods, though it's no surprise property values are what they are for the Junction--the neighbourhood offers a lot no matter what your tastes and lifestyle are.
 
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DC83 said:
OK, to whoever said a Hamilton House is not a savings over a Junction House (which don't forget doesn't have a streetcar, or easy access to the subway) is (again) completely wrong and I'm convinced is just making stuff up now (?!)

A Hamilton Neighbourhood similar to the Junction would be Ottawa St (in terms of distance-from-downtown, access-to-transit, housing stock, and kitch factor).
According to MLS (realtor.ca), a typical 3 Bed + 2 Bath house around Ottawa St (Hamilton) is ~ $175,000-$289,000.
Junction (Toronto - same 3 Bed + 2 Bath) go for ~ $700,000- $2,000,000.

And despite what the CN Tower says, those values will absolutely rise as Hamilton's housing prices continue their correction, and when the B-Line LRT stop opens @ Main & Ottawa!
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Free tip:

If you want to compare Hamilton to somewhere try Windsor, Sarnia, Buffalo, Detroit, Flint perhaps. Not a desirable area of Toronto. By that measure I'm sure it's greatly over priced.

Hamilton to the Junction is like comparing apples to rotten apples.
 
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