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- Thread starter UrbanAffair
- Start date
J Bacon
New Member
In the context of the Province taking over the Gardiner, let's see the feasibility study produce a suggested "cheaper" alternative of tunneling a connection from the East end of the Gardiner to the 401 in Pickering.
nfitz
Superstar
That's only 4 lanes. So only need 7 to 8 tunnels like that.WestConnex:
borgo100
Active Member
Or to just continue the 413 straight past Claremont to meet up with a 412 extension. Even with the expropriation costs, it would be cheaper than the 401 tunnel.
ARG1
Senior Member
The flyover they're building in Halton tells a completely different story. They wouldn't be building a flyover if there wasn't some understanding of the tracks being used almost exclusively by GO.
What is this then, an official unofficial announcement?: https://news.ontario.ca/en/release/1004169/ontario-building-better-transit-for-peel-and-milton
I also find it strange to suggest that CP hasn't agreed to this, or that there haven't been discussions at all between the province and CP regarding this. To claim that they haven't agreed to such a project would also be to claim that the provincial government and Metrolinx started working on an IBC, have already calculated a rough price tag, and started soliciting funds from the federal government, all whilst leaving CP in the dark. Not that I wouldn't put it past this government to make such a mistake, but if this was the actual case we would've at least heard some statement from CP denouncing this announcement, or some report from reputable news agency. So no, somehow I highly doubt that CP hasn't agreed with such a project.
Bojaxs
Active Member
That's literatelly what is it. Re-read the first couple sentences. Nothing more than a statement from the Provincial goovernment expressing their desire to see AD2W GO on the Milton line. They even ask the Federal government to step up and provide funding. Nothing concrete.
Having said all that, I very much want to see it happen.
christiesplits
Senior Member
Modest proposal: Work out a deal with the 407 where the Ontario government purchases 25,000 transponders with unlimited (lifetime) 407 access. Hold a lottery for York, Peel, Halton and Durham residents for the responders.
Much cheaper (and faster) than tunnelling.
Much cheaper (and faster) than tunnelling.
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ARG1
Senior Member
No that's not how it works. You don't simply ask the Feds to provide money, or come up with a $6B number without first asking CP whether they would even allow you to build such a project, or how much money they'd have to pay for mitigations. There is no way CP didn't approve/agree to such a project, and if they didn't we would've known it by now, and the opposition parties would've absolutely brought it up during the Milton by-election.
Not to mention this is very specific wording: This isn't just "2WAD GO" on the Milton Line, it specifically says "by building a fully separated passenger rail line", both in the press release and in the letter to the federal government. That's not just "A 3rd track to help increase capacity".
guavadelic
New Member
With how fast the communities west of Toronto are growing, the incremental additions the province is doing to that corridor won't meet the demand needed. KW region can support 30min frequencies now, with 15min at peak. That would mean eventual electrification to make rail competitive with the car. Combine that with growing intercity rail demand in southern Ontario and the time is soon approaching to accommodate CN's freight traffic elsewhere.
Those conversations should be happening now cause we know how long it'll take to actually build something like that.
drum118
Superstar
If the projections remains as is for 2040-50. where do you put 2,5-3,3 million more vehicles on the existing roads without having 7/24 gridlock??
At the same time, tunnel need veneration every x distance and where does this dream of a highway tunnel under the 401 to be place when there is no room in the current ROW to do it?? At the same time, what will be the impact be on those who live/work/play next to these veneration shafts??
If you want the tunnel for traffic that will be bypassing the city, how do you build ramps for highway 410, 427, 400, Yonge, 404 going north only??? Do you allow southbound traffic to have access to this tunnel??
How do you deal with accidents and fire in the tunnel that will happen from time to time??
Do you set the minimum speed for the tunnel at 100 km and how do you enforce it??
The current GO System will have to be expanded to areas that used to have rail service to the point you need to build new lines using shorter trains. It will have a major impact on Union Station and other areas.
At the same time, tunnel need veneration every x distance and where does this dream of a highway tunnel under the 401 to be place when there is no room in the current ROW to do it?? At the same time, what will be the impact be on those who live/work/play next to these veneration shafts??
If you want the tunnel for traffic that will be bypassing the city, how do you build ramps for highway 410, 427, 400, Yonge, 404 going north only??? Do you allow southbound traffic to have access to this tunnel??
How do you deal with accidents and fire in the tunnel that will happen from time to time??
Do you set the minimum speed for the tunnel at 100 km and how do you enforce it??
The current GO System will have to be expanded to areas that used to have rail service to the point you need to build new lines using shorter trains. It will have a major impact on Union Station and other areas.
ARG1
Senior Member
Ok let's not pretend that nobody has ever built an underground, or even a long underground highway. Mitigations for this kinda stuff have been around for a long time.
anb
Active Member
What if we instead use this unimaginable budget to make an entire bus lane network, like the Mississauga Transitway or the one in Ottawa (before it was converted into LRT). It will be massively cheaper, and it will move people around a lot more efficiently in the long term.
Bojaxs
Active Member
crs1026
Superstar
Quite true, the important arguments against this project are its cost and its purpose. One could raise a ton of technical objections, but all of these would be solvable if enough money were spent.
The answer to the question of, "where do you put all the cars that we predict are coming" is simple..... don't let them come. Build transit instead.
As of today the northernmost continuous transit line across Toronto is - at Eglinton, almost. That needs to be remedied. We need both Sheppard Subway and Finch LRT driven right across the city. Possibly one further line, regional rather than all stops, somewhere up around Steeles..
Plus, we need to reclaim the 407 and start using it to its fullest. Far cheaper to settle up on that re-provincialisation than to build some tunnel.
- Paul
Dan416
Senior Member
I agree that we can't just keep adding a lane to combat congestion on our highways, but the bottleneck on the 401 could be addressed by tunnelling the express lanes, so that we don't have that huge bottleneck by the 427. But I wouldn't add any more lanes after that.
And we definitely need focus on the Milton line, and Midtown if we're getting fancy. Completing Finch and Sheppard as routes that both cross both sides of Yonge is important too. I am down for the government buying out the 407 ETR corporations remaining lease on their portion of the highway. So much more could be done then a tunnel from Peel to Durham. That is just not necessary.
And we definitely need focus on the Milton line, and Midtown if we're getting fancy. Completing Finch and Sheppard as routes that both cross both sides of Yonge is important too. I am down for the government buying out the 407 ETR corporations remaining lease on their portion of the highway. So much more could be done then a tunnel from Peel to Durham. That is just not necessary.