afransen
Senior Member
Montreal seems to have more backbone on this front.I do not think there will ever be the political appetite to get rid of cars anywhere in Canada, wholesale, in your natural lifespan or mine.
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Montreal seems to have more backbone on this front.I do not think there will ever be the political appetite to get rid of cars anywhere in Canada, wholesale, in your natural lifespan or mine.
It's a transit mall, not a pedestrian mall.1. trams are slower in transit malls because of safety concerns for pedestrians. they have to operate a slower speeds for that reason.
I understand your sentiment, and that investment in public transportation infrastructure usually provides solid returns, but I'm not sure a blank cheque is the best way to approach improving our infrastructure.2. i never want to hear the sentence we don't have enough $ to build higher order transit. it's a lame excuse and isn't congruent with reality. why are the expanding and building more rapid transit than ever before? must be out of money.
Slower than what? Grade separated? Sure, but there’s stop spacing to consider for that too. Consolidation is possible - though not necessarily desirable - on the surface.1. trams are slower in transit malls because of safety concerns for pedestrians. they have to operate a slower speeds for that reason.
It’s not only “how much does this cost?”, but also “what’s the benefit of this spending?” A tunnel under King, in addition to screwing over E-W riders (both through OL-Kong diversions and worse local service), would have a high cost for not much benefit. What if we spent that money on bus lanes, or new buses in York Region, or a subway somewhere else, or better streetcar maintenance2. i never want to hear the sentence we don't have enough $ to build higher order transit. it's a lame excuse and isn't congruent with reality. why are the expanding and building more rapid transit than ever before? must be out of money.
Going slow for pedestrian safety is still faster than completely stopped because there are cars in your way.1. trams are slower in transit malls because of safety concerns for pedestrians. they have to operate a slower speeds for that reason.
The real answer here is converting Dundas, College, Queen and King to one way streets.1. trams are slower in transit malls because of safety concerns for pedestrians. they have to operate a slower speeds for that reason.
2. i never want to hear the sentence we don't have enough $ to build higher order transit. it's a lame excuse and isn't congruent with reality. why are the expanding and building more rapid transit than ever before? must be out of money.
3. streetcar would have a ROW if they were one way. unfortunately that isn't possible with 60 foot wide streets downtown and two way traffic.
4. luckily there's two one way streets in between them called Adelaide and Richmond. maybe they could also run streetcars across their entire length.
I think automated enforcement is a good deterrent. Once people start racking up hundreds of dollars in fines they'll start rethinking driving down King Street. Not everyone of course, maybe the ultra-rich will happily pay those fees. But the vast majority won't want to pay.The real answer here is converting Dundas, College, Queen and King to one way streets.
Edit: If we really cared about running streetcars on time, and with greater speed this is what we'd do. Enforcement against drivers in their way and dedicated ROWs. The only way to do dedicated ROWs is either ban cars or make these streets 1-way & 1 lane
Its this, billions of dollars for grade separated streetcars or the status quo.
I really just want to see Toronto's streetcars be 1st class citizens in their own ROW.I think automated enforcement is a good deterrent. Once people start racking up hundreds of dollars in fines they'll start rethinking driving down King Street. Not everyone of course, maybe the ultra-rich will happily pay those fees. But the vast majority won't want to pay.
The real answer here is converting Dundas, College, Queen and King to one way streets.
Edit: If we really cared about running streetcars on time, and with greater speed this is what we'd do. Enforcement against drivers in their way and dedicated ROWs. The only way to do dedicated ROWs is either ban cars or make these streets 1-way & 1 lane
Its this, billions of dollars for grade separated streetcars or the status quo.
some great points. i do think a King subway would be a couple of decades from now, post OL & GO expansion (optimization).Slower than what? Grade separated? Sure, but there’s stop spacing to consider for that too. Consolidation is possible - though not necessarily desirable - on the surface.
Also, speed is not the end-all-be-all. Many streetcar trips are local trips, and higher speeds, wider stop spacing, and underground stations may not decrease door-to-door travel time.
It’s not only “how much does this cost?”, but also “what’s the benefit of this spending?” A tunnel under King, in addition to screwing over E-W riders (both through OL-Kong diversions and worse local service), would have a high cost for not much benefit. What if we spent that money on bus lanes, or new buses in York Region, or a subway somewhere else, or better streetcar maintenanceso we don’t have diversions every other week?Can you get 90% the benefit for half the cost, or 70% the benefit for 20% the cost (for example)?
Money doesn’t grow on trees. There’s a trade off for everything, let’s not think of resources as infinite.
Oh yeah there is a big contingent of activists now several generations out of touch in this city that still get unhinged angry over one way streets, and for many in that anti-fandom community it's really a guise to punish people who are able to travel faster that the slowest possible method. They want the city to be where people stagnate and conform, and not ever get ahead or evolve. That's the exact opposite of why a city exists.i had a similar idea, but historically lame politicians like adam vaughan thought it would make the downtown core a ghost town. i'm guessing he's never been to New York. anyways i think it would work well.
you're right though for every streetcar to be in ROW it would require converting those routes to one way streets. one lane for vehicle traffic, two for streetcars, one for bikes/station platforms & (maybe delivery trucks as well if a side street can't accommodate them).
To me a more obvious route is Esplande and Front. King already has transit and chunks of Queen will have a Subway. Front and areas south of it are underserved. Building on King would mess up the corridor for 10 years.
That's a can of worms. Where is the eventual extension of the OL going? Do they both need to go to Bloor? Should one of them go north of Bloor? Is it worth sending one along the Lake to Etobicoke?how far east & west would this line go before veering north?
UT has several fantasy threads - this discussion might be more appropriate in one of them!That's a can of worms. Where is the eventual extension of the OL going? Do they both need to go to Bloor? Should one of them go north of Bloor? Is it worth sending one along the Lake to Etobicoke?
In the east, how about intersecting with OL at corktown, then a station at Queen's Quay and Cherry, then under Lakeshore, rising to elevated, and just ending at Coxwell and Queen.