evandyk
Senior Member
Funny thing is that even when you do that, the walk is probably shorter than delivering to most suburban strip malls.
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evandyk
Senior Member
The HTA regulations can be changed. Cabinet can do it with a stroke of a pen.
reaperexpress
Senior Member
First of all, no, there's a pretty long process for HTA updates that involves consulting engineers and other practitioners and doing research. They don't just change the HTA on a whim.
But even so, the post was not asking for the HTA to be changed, it was saying "why is the City so stupid that they didn't do this obvious thing I just thought of".
I can tell you that the City absolutely did consider that type of transit signal layout that as part of the original pilot in 2017 and the City would have installed them already if they could.
It's just sad that some people are so arrogant that they think that the reason the design ends up being stupid is because the practitioners are morons, rather than that they face real-world constraints that are not self-evident on twitter.
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goreckm
Active Member
For sure there are constraints and the guy had no idea what he was talking about. However, it does point to common sense things not being possible because of this huge beauracratic red tape, and these frustrations go way beyond just signs, it's part of what makes everyone feel government is no longer effective. The process for updating the HTA should take ~ 3 months, so that a government can identify a problem and solve it in a reasonable amount of time.
reaperexpress
Senior Member
Yes and I literally said that on the previous page of this thread. I even outlined the changes we should make to the HTA to enable more intuitive signal indications.
DSC
Superstar
Steve Munro has a not very positive review! https://stevemunro.ca/2024/04/14/king-adelaide-york-update-april-2024/
nfitz
Superstar
To be honest, with all the green lights they've added - it looks even more like that you can drive straight. Who could possibly process all that in the 1 second that the streetcar in front of you moves forward and you first see the sign.
I've made comments (in a response to MetroMan on how it could be better and very different on Twitter. Without actually doing anything more than adding paint (though some earlier signage would help).
slicecom
Active Member
I don't know, I walked along King and observed how drivers are reacting and I didn't see one driver go straight through. I saw multiple drivers stopped at the red for multiple cycles, anticipating it to turn green for them to go straight through. I saw 2 cars sit at the red for a full 4 traffic cycles before a streetcar came up behind them and honked at them. I agree it could be done much better, but this is the first solution that seems to have stopped (at least for now) drivers from going straight through.
turini2
Active Member
Oh yes, it's not compliant ... but regulations can always be changed!
It's an example of worldwide best practice - rather than the "oh how terrible, we will never be able to fix this problem that no one else has ever had" mindset common in North American transit circles.
generalcanada
Senior Member
things that are completely expected for $500 Alex.
afransen
Senior Member
The problem is that once you have a culture of people ignoring the signs/signals, those behind imitate.
Maybe we just need to continue with the wardens and enforcement blitz and issue tickets.
Maybe we just need to continue with the wardens and enforcement blitz and issue tickets.
nfitz
Superstar
Cameras
adys123
Active Member
That's likely the piece of the puzzle that will make this approach semi-work. Once the red light cameras are active, a couple of weeks will likely be all it takes to change behaviour. Although, the new set up is still confusing for people, compliance will come with enforcement.
turini2
Active Member
And in due course, a street redesign could help King look distinctive so that drivers don't automatically drive down it by second nature, ignoring all signs etc.
NACTO has some good examples Downtown Shared Transitway, as does Melbourne on Swanston Street.
NACTO has some good examples Downtown Shared Transitway, as does Melbourne on Swanston Street.
Mihairokov
Active Member
Drivers will always ignore signs or other lights if they think they can.
A week ago I had a lengthy wait for a bus on King at Spadina and watched as loads of WB vehicles simply turned left from a lane that didn't exist and/or went straight despite signage telling them not to. Later on that walk I watched a vehicle drive onto the streetcar-only tracks on Queens Quay. Eventually I came upon Richmond where a vehicle drove the wrong direction through multiple intersections. Drivers are crazy and live in their own worlds until you forcibly pull them from them. Whether that's cameras, barriers, or physical wardens at intersections. Signs and lights aren't enough and don't fully resolve these issues.
A week ago I had a lengthy wait for a bus on King at Spadina and watched as loads of WB vehicles simply turned left from a lane that didn't exist and/or went straight despite signage telling them not to. Later on that walk I watched a vehicle drive onto the streetcar-only tracks on Queens Quay. Eventually I came upon Richmond where a vehicle drove the wrong direction through multiple intersections. Drivers are crazy and live in their own worlds until you forcibly pull them from them. Whether that's cameras, barriers, or physical wardens at intersections. Signs and lights aren't enough and don't fully resolve these issues.