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AlvinofDiaspar said:
Though honestly the ability of the city to tie up OP redevelopment is always weak; and in all it isn't a terrible trade, especially with additional TTC funding.

AoD
Click to expand...

Agreed. Taking the DVP and Gardiner off the hands of the City is also not a bad thing.

I consider this a win overall.
 
Richard White said:
Agreed. Taking the DVP and Gardiner off the hands of the City is also not a bad thing.

I consider this a win overall.
Click to expand...

Well in the ideal world it is bad because it removes the power of the city to do anything with them; but at the same time, the city isn't doing anything with them, so...

AoD
 
Blovertis said:
globalnews.ca

Toronto and Ontario agree to new deal, including DVP, Gardiner and Ontario Place | Globalnews.ca

The deal will also include money for transit and refugees, while the city will redouble its efforts to build housing and transit-oriented communities.
globalnews.ca globalnews.ca
Click to expand...

Let's have a look at the elements in the deal, as per the piece linked:

1701100783300.png


So capital funds for new Line 2 Trains

Plus operating funds; and some sort of stop-gap fund until ridership returns to pre-pandemic levels.
 
Northern Light said:
Let's have a look at the elements in the deal, as per the piece linked:

View attachment 523206

So capital funds for new Line 2 Trains

Plus operating funds; and some sort of stop-gap fund until ridership returns to pre-pandemic levels.
Click to expand...

Which also explains why the new trains were back on the TTC agenda suddenly.

AoD
 
AlvinofDiaspar said:
Though honestly the ability of the city to tie up OP redevelopment is always weak; and in all it isn't a terrible trade, especially with additional TTC funding.

AoD
Click to expand...
People voted for Chow expecting her to do something to stop the Therme deal and by extension the relocation of the Ontario Science Centre.

She didn't even try.

And the uploading of the costs associated with maintaining the eastern Gardner is a "win" only if one pretends there wasn't another option: tearing it down altogether.
 
Blovertis said:
People voted for Chow expecting her to do something to stop the Therme deal and by extension the relocation of the Ontario Science Centre.

She didn't even try.

And the uploading of the costs associated with maintaining the eastern Gardner is a "win" only if one pretends there wasn't another option: tearing it down altogether.
Click to expand...

As much as I would love to see the Gardiner come down, the City just pumped alot of money into it. As well, it costs money to tear it down.

It is the Provinces problem now.
 
Blovertis said:
People voted for Chow expecting her to do something to stop the Therme deal and by extension the relocation of the Ontario Science Centre.

She didn't even try.

And the uploading of the costs associated with maintaining the eastern Gardner is a "win" only if one pretends there wasn't another option: tearing it down altogether.
Click to expand...
Politicians not making good on big promises they make is a fundamental of politics.
 
turini2 said:
From an urbanist perspective, the Gardiner being rebuilt is a terrible decision. If it gets uploaded, wave goodbye to streetscape improvements [MTO is terrible] and any potential of tolling in the medium term.

From a wily political perspective, I can see why the province uploading the DVP and Gardiner could be good thing. Ford (and his allies in Council) get to claim "we saved the Gardiner", as well as supporting their construction industry and auto lobby pals.
Chow doesn't have to have the fight in council over it (not a guaranteed victory), no longer has to spend $1bn+ on rebuilding the Gardiner (potentially money that could be spent elsewhere), and potentially gets a "hall pass" for something else with Ford. You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours.
Click to expand...
From the Gardiner thread a while back...
This deal doesn't look terrible - Ford was always going to win the Ontario Place battle, regardless of how much Chow/Council jumped up and down.
 
Blovertis said:
People voted for Chow expecting her to do something to stop the Therme deal and by extension the relocation of the Ontario Science Centre.

She didn't even try.

And the uploading of the costs associated with maintaining the eastern Gardner is a "win" only if one pretends there wasn't another option: tearing it down altogether.
Click to expand...

People voted for Chow to do a multitude of things; unfortunately OP simply isn't a city-uniting issue; I'd say the budget and TTC is.

turini2 said:
From the Gardiner thread a while back...
This deal doesn't look terrible - Ford was always going to win the Ontario Place battle, regardless of how much Chow/Council jumped up and down.
Click to expand...

I do hope that the WT Gardiner/LSW public realm improvement doesn't get affected. Not sure what this will do the the realignment scheme though. Fundamentally it just punts the issue of the highway down the road further - and governments don't stay the same - it may be possible to see more movement ironically given the ability the fiscal wherewithal of the province.

AoD
 
Press conference notes:
  • Ford:
    • Platitudes
    • Funding for shelters/beds, security on TTC, ETC and FWLRT projects
    • 7.6 billion in capital relief by uploading DVP and Gardiner, Ford pledges no tolls on them ever
    • Toronto to meet or exceed housing construction goals, mentions near transit stations in particular
    • To find surplus government-owned lands to build housing
    • City accepts provincial authority over OP
    • More platitudes, requests more federal involvement
  • Chow:
    • Heartstring-pulling focused on housing
    • City to spend billions more on housing and transit through highway upload
    • Structural change to Toronto's finances, but isn't enough. Continued provincial-municipal conversations necessary to address Toronto's financial sustainability
    • Also calls on federal government, wants 1/3 of money for Line 2 cars (where province has pledged 50% of budget - is this new?)
  • Q+A:
    • Why cede control of Ontario Place?
      • Chow: Position is clear, OP should be a park. But it belongs to provincial government, and city does not have authority to prevent development
      • Debate over OP will happen at QP, not at the city.
      • Possibility of shifting parking lot to Exhibition Place, opening up more waterfront space
      • Science Centre location will maintain certain programs (seems to be final confirmation of OSC moving to OP)
    • Will DF accept parking lot moving?
      • OP is minor part of the deal, uploading highways will save the city billions
      • More funding to TTC security (dodging the question)
    • Other cities say they're broke too, why not replicate in other cities?
      • DF has worked and will continue to work with other cities
      • Toronto is unique, only city with subway that moves millions, province+city+feds are collaborating to double the subway
      • Toronto and GTA represents 50% of Ontario GDP, 20% of Canadian GDP, more calls for fed involvement
    • RCMP Greenbelt question
      • Ford says will go along with whatever RCMP wants
      • Wants to focus on the deal, more question-dodging
    • Province always had authority on OP, isn't this pricey for moving city out of the way?
      • OP is a minor issue overall
      • Was losing millions per year, want to create more opportunities and bring in tourism, etc
      • Maybe parking lot isn't the best place, let's move it to EP
      • DF will work with anyone. He knows the deal is good because both sides aren't happy. Province doesn't want the highway responsibility either
    • Fed involvement is critical, so what's missing?
      • Toronto is 20% of Ontario population, has minimum 50% of asylum seekers
      • We need fed funding to address this, help seekers get work permits
      • Fed has been a good partner in many ways, but now is the most important time for collaboration
    • Why not do this deal under Tory?
      • DF says he did help Tory, but this is a new chapter
      • Tory is involved, gives advice
    • Why the timing (some over 3 years, some now)?
      • DF says will certainly help with city finances
      • Upload will happen no matter what the due diligence process says
      • OC: Summarizes some funding details, suggests that budget is considerably freed up (including provincial funding of 700 million plus for Line 2 cars)
      • 342 million for housing, first year in June 2024, so can plan to build much more (in addition to federal funding)
      • Capital over 10 years is 3-5 billion or more
      • Deal is historic, both OC and DF have played with the evocative term "new deal"
      • TTC state of good repair will also be funded (signaling, station renovations)
    • Is OSC moving to OP?
      • OSC will be moved to OP, took political will
      • OSC is city property and legacy will be respected, will respect whatever city wants to do (schools, etc)
      • OC: It's a partnership opportunity to maintain science programming
      • Housing on that site will be up to the city (OC says no housing)
    • How can Use it or Lose it policy not be punitive?
      • DF: Developers ask for MZO, then see stalling. That's unacceptable, will work with municipalities
      • Construction is highest priority, and will do anything to help
      • Must work together with developers
      • Ontario is fastest growing region in NA, we welcome immigrants into strong economy, but need shelter
    • Follow-up: Companies need to start building. If no punitive approach, then did you water down the policy?
      • Builders need more infrastructure, need federal involvement on infrastructure
      • Water and sewer are critical to preventing rapid construction
    • Does province have ability to change DVP/Gardiner?
      • DF says no ability to widen these highways, so answer is no
      • No cost-sharing on highways
    • Cost-sharing on OSC?
      • Wait for IO to discuss later this week
      • OC: OSC is owned by city, Ontario government has 99yr lease. Actual building owned and operated by province
      • Upkeep and programming is provincial responsibility
      • Partnership to ensure no one loses out, maintain some science programming
    • City feels it needs sustainable and growing revenue. On 1.2 billion, are you committed to that in perpetuity?
      • This will be a continued partnership. New things may pop up in future so will revisit at that time
      • DF thanks OC ("I have a soft spot for the Mayor")
    • To OC: Funding won't meet 1.5 billion shortfall, so what do you do?
      • This is a good first step, needs federal government to step up
      • Conversation will continue
 
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