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voilan said:
Press conference notes:
  • Ford:
    • Platitudes
    • Funding for shelters/beds, security on TTC, ETC and FWLRT projects
    • 7.6 billion in capital relief by uploading DVP and Gardiner, Ford pledges no tolls on them ever
    • Toronto to meet or exceed housing construction goals, mentions near transit stations in particular
    • To find surplus government-owned lands to build housing
    • City accepts provincial authority over OP
    • More platitudes, requests more federal involvement
  • Chow:
    • Heartstring-pulling focused on housing
    • City to spend billions more on housing and transit through highway upload
    • Structural change to Toronto's finances, but isn't enough. Continued provincial-municipal conversations necessary to address Toronto's financial sustainability
    • Also calls on federal government, wants 1/3 of money for Line 2 cars (where province has pledged 50% of budget - is this new?)
  • Q+A:
    • Why cede control of Ontario Place?
      • Chow: Position is clear, OP should be a park. But it belongs to provincial government, and city does not have authority to prevent development
      • Debate over OP will happen at QP, not at the city.
      • Possibility of shifting parking lot to Exhibition Place, opening up more waterfront space
      • Science Centre location will maintain certain programs (seems to be final confirmation of OSC moving to OP)
    • Will DF accept parking lot moving?
      • OP is minor part of the deal, uploading highways will save the city billions
      • More funding to TTC security (dodging the question)
    • Other cities say they're broke too, why not replicate in other cities?
      • DF has worked and will continue to work with other cities
      • Toronto is unique, only city with subway that moves millions, province+city+feds are collaborating to double the subway
      • Toronto and GTA represents 50% of Ontario GDP, 20% of Canadian GDP, more calls for fed involvement
    • RCMP Greenbelt question
      • Ford says will go along with whatever RCMP wants
      • Wants to focus on the deal, more question-dodging
    • Province always had authority on OP, isn't this pricey for moving city out of the way?
      • OP is a minor issue overall
      • Was losing millions per year, want to create more opportunities and bring in tourism, etc
      • Maybe parking lot isn't the best place, let's move it to EP
      • DF will work with anyone. He knows the deal is good because both sides aren't happy. Province doesn't want the highway responsibility either
    • Fed involvement is critical, so what's missing?
      • Toronto is 20% of Ontario population, has minimum 50% of asylum seekers
      • We need fed funding to address this, help seekers get work permits
      • Fed has been a good partner in many ways, but now is the most important time for collaboration
    • Why not do this deal under Tory?
      • DF says he did help Tory, but this is a new chapter
      • Tory is involved, gives/takes advice
    • Why the timing (some over 3 years, some now)?
      • DF says will certainly help with city finances
      • Upload will happen no matter what the due diligence process says
      • OC: Summarizes some funding details, suggests that budget is considerably freed up (including provincial funding of 700 million plus for Line 2 cars)
      • 342 million for housing, first year in June 2024, so can plan to build much more (in addition to federal funding)
      • Capital over 10 years is 3-5 billion or more
      • Deal is historic, both OC and DF have played with the evocative term "new deal"
      • TTC state of good repair will also be funded (signaling, station renovations)
    • Is OSC moving to OP?
      • OSC will be moved to OP, took political will
      • OSC is city property and legacy will be respected, will respect whatever city wants to do (schools, etc)
      • OC: It's a partnership opportunity to maintain science programming
      • Housing on that site will be up to the city (OC says no housing)
    • How can Use it or Lose it policy not be punitive?
      • DF: Developers ask for MZO, then see stalling. That's unacceptable, will work with municipalities
      • Construction is highest priority, and will do anything to help
      • Must work together with developers
      • Ontario is fastest growing region in NA, we welcome immigrants into strong economy, but need shelter
    • Follow-up: Companies need to start building. If no punitive approach, then did you water down the policy?
      • Builders need more infrastructure, need federal involvement on infrastructure
      • Water and sewer are critical to preventing rapid construction
    • Does province have ability to change DVP/Gardiner?
      • DF says no ability to widen these highways, so answer is no
      • No cost-sharing on highways
    • Cost-sharing on OSC?
      • Wait for IO to discuss later this week
      • OC: OSC is owned by city, Ontario government has 99yr lease. Actual building owned and operated by province
      • Upkeep and programming is provincial responsibility
      • Partnership to ensure no one loses out, maintain some science programming
    • City feels it needs sustainable and growing revenue. On 1.2 billion, are you committed to that in perpetuity?
      • This will be a continued partnership. New things may pop up in future so will revisit at that time
      • DF thanks OC ("I have a soft spot for the Mayor")
    • To OC: Funding won't meet 1.5 billion shortfall, so what do you do?
      • This is a good first step, needs federal government to step up
      • Conversation will continue
Click to expand...

TL: DR?
 
turini2 said:
From the Gardiner thread a while back...
This deal doesn't look terrible - Ford was always going to win the Ontario Place battle, regardless of how much Chow/Council jumped up and down.
Click to expand...

On the Gardiner front........I expect the province will upload a large number of the City staff currently overseeing the project and transfer them into the MTO.

There's a large contingent of Transportation assigned to these items and and the MTO is kind of lean these days....

The province will pick up the tab next year (2024) the but the City will still oversee it until at least 2025.

****

On the Ontario Place front.............

1701103656376.png


I said over in the applicable thread, this offer doesn't really make a lot of sense, its not where the controversy is, unless, the desire is to shift Therme to the parking lot, which I would support.
 
voilan said:
Press conference notes:
  • Ford:
    • Platitudes
    • Funding for shelters/beds, security on TTC, ETC and FWLRT projects
    • 7.6 billion in capital relief by uploading DVP and Gardiner, Ford pledges no tolls on them ever
    • Toronto to meet or exceed housing construction goals, mentions near transit stations in particular
    • To find surplus government-owned lands to build housing
    • City accepts provincial authority over OP
    • More platitudes, requests more federal involvement
  • Chow:
    • Heartstring-pulling focused on housing
    • City to spend billions more on housing and transit through highway upload
    • Structural change to Toronto's finances, but isn't enough. Continued provincial-municipal conversations necessary to address Toronto's financial sustainability
    • Also calls on federal government, wants 1/3 of money for Line 2 cars (where province has pledged 50% of budget - is this new?)
  • Q+A:
    • Why cede control of Ontario Place?
      • Chow: Position is clear, OP should be a park. But it belongs to provincial government, and city does not have authority to prevent development
      • Debate over OP will happen at QP, not at the city.
      • Possibility of shifting parking lot to Exhibition Place, opening up more waterfront space
      • Science Centre location will maintain certain programs (seems to be final confirmation of OSC moving to OP)
    • Will DF accept parking lot moving?
      • OP is minor part of the deal, uploading highways will save the city billions
      • More funding to TTC security (dodging the question)
    • Other cities say they're broke too, why not replicate in other cities?
      • DF has worked and will continue to work with other cities
      • Toronto is unique, only city with subway that moves millions, province+city+feds are collaborating to double the subway
      • Toronto and GTA represents 50% of Ontario GDP, 20% of Canadian GDP, more calls for fed involvement
    • RCMP Greenbelt question
      • Ford says will go along with whatever RCMP wants
      • Wants to focus on the deal, more question-dodging
    • Province always had authority on OP, isn't this pricey for moving city out of the way?
      • OP is a minor issue overall
      • Was losing millions per year, want to create more opportunities and bring in tourism, etc
      • Maybe parking lot isn't the best place, let's move it to EP
      • DF will work with anyone. He knows the deal is good because both sides aren't happy. Province doesn't want the highway responsibility either
    • Fed involvement is critical, so what's missing?
      • Toronto is 20% of Ontario population, has minimum 50% of asylum seekers
      • We need fed funding to address this, help seekers get work permits
      • Fed has been a good partner in many ways, but now is the most important time for collaboration
    • Why not do this deal under Tory?
      • DF says he did help Tory, but this is a new chapter
      • Tory is involved, gives/takes advice
    • Why the timing (some over 3 years, some now)?
      • DF says will certainly help with city finances
      • Upload will happen no matter what the due diligence process says
      • OC: Summarizes some funding details, suggests that budget is considerably freed up (including provincial funding of 700 million plus for Line 2 cars)
      • 342 million for housing, first year in June 2024, so can plan to build much more (in addition to federal funding)
      • Capital over 10 years is 3-5 billion or more
      • Deal is historic, both OC and DF have played with the evocative term "new deal"
      • TTC state of good repair will also be funded (signaling, station renovations)
    • Is OSC moving to OP?
      • OSC will be moved to OP, took political will
      • OSC is city property and legacy will be respected, will respect whatever city wants to do (schools, etc)
      • OC: It's a partnership opportunity to maintain science programming
      • Housing on that site will be up to the city (OC says no housing)
    • How can Use it or Lose it policy not be punitive?
      • DF: Developers ask for MZO, then see stalling. That's unacceptable, will work with municipalities
      • Construction is highest priority, and will do anything to help
      • Must work together with developers
      • Ontario is fastest growing region in NA, we welcome immigrants into strong economy, but need shelter
    • Follow-up: Companies need to start building. If no punitive approach, then did you water down the policy?
      • Builders need more infrastructure, need federal involvement on infrastructure
      • Water and sewer are critical to preventing rapid construction
    • Does province have ability to change DVP/Gardiner?
      • DF says no ability to widen these highways, so answer is no
      • No cost-sharing on highways
    • Cost-sharing on OSC?
      • Wait for IO to discuss later this week
      • OC: OSC is owned by city, Ontario government has 99yr lease. Actual building owned and operated by province
      • Upkeep and programming is provincial responsibility
      • Partnership to ensure no one loses out, maintain some science programming
    • City feels it needs sustainable and growing revenue. On 1.2 billion, are you committed to that in perpetuity?
      • This will be a continued partnership. New things may pop up in future so will revisit at that time
      • DF thanks OC ("I have a soft spot for the Mayor")
    • To OC: Funding won't meet 1.5 billion shortfall, so what do you do?
      • This is a good first step, needs federal government to step up
      • Conversation will continue
Click to expand...

Excellent synopsis, thank you.

Richard White said:
TL: DR?
Click to expand...

Wasn't that long, took less time to read than you spent posting TL : DR

Post was thoughtful, worth taking the time to read.
 
Last edited:
Blovertis said:
People voted for Chow expecting her to do something to stop the Therme deal and by extension the relocation of the Ontario Science Centre.

She didn't even try.

And the uploading of the costs associated with maintaining the eastern Gardner is a "win" only if one pretends there wasn't another option: tearing it down altogether.
Click to expand...
The budget is a much larger issue to a larger group of people overall. Funding for new trains on Line 2 will help to prevent disasters like what happened to Line 3. And while the City loses control of what to do with the Gardiner and DVP, it gains the ability to do far more with the money that is freed up.

The province always had more authority on the Ontario Place, so whatever opposition from the City probably would've only amounted to stalling.

Priorities always have to be balanced against each other, I see this as her fulfilling her election promise to get a new deal process rolling and seeing some actual results.

Tory, who was more politically aligned with Ford, had many more years to do something to fix the City's budget hole, and essentially decided to just push it to the future. That is what I'd call not trying.
 
voilan said:
Tory is involved, gives/takes advice
Click to expand...

Huh? John Tory was a part of these negotiations between the city and the province? I can maybe understand that he might be giving advice to the province under the circumstances, but what does it mean to say that Tory is taking advice since he has no current political role? Or is this about when he was still mayor before any of this happened?
 
toonderly said:
Huh? John Tory was a part of these negotiations between the city and the province? I can maybe understand that he might be giving advice to the province under the circumstances, but what does it mean to say that Tory is taking advice since he has no current political role? Or is this about when he was still mayor before any of this happened?
Click to expand...
The question was "why didn't this happen under Tory", and DF basically responded that they have a good relationship and discussed this deal. I'll remove "take" for clarity, mistyped clearly.
 
The Gardiner teardown option was never going to happen. And Toronto being forced to pay for the re-build (and maintenance) was a very real possibility.

The best part of this deal is that it shows The Province has recognized Toronto has financial issues that it cannot fix on it's own, and it builds trust and confidence for both parties to continue working with one another in the future.

DoFo was going to do what he wanted with Ontario Place no matter what. There's still a non-zero chance he does something criminal with it, and get's exposed before it is even built.
 
Blovertis said:
So let me get this straight. In a single move, Chow just threw under the bus: (i) people who wanted to save Ontario Place. and (ii) people who wanted to tear down the eastern Gardner and free up land for redevelopment.

Don't blame me, I voted for Matlow
Click to expand...

I voted for Matlow as well, but, realistically, the chance of a different outcome were almost non-existent, since Ford can just completely override any municipal rules he doesn't like anyways. While I would greatly prefer the Gardiner to be torn down, and I hate that we'll be seeing a monument to Ford's corruption live on in Ontario Place for decades, in the end, the city has significantly more issues on it's plate than dealing with those two things, and this will do more to get the city to a better place in the long run. Sometimes, compromises suck when you negotiate from a weaker spot, but that's life.
 
Northern Light said:
So capital funds for new Line 2 Trains
Click to expand...
My read is that this is contingent on Federal financing, which may not (probably will not) appear.
Blovertis said:
People voted for Chow expecting her to do something to stop the Therme deal and by extension the relocation of the Ontario Science Centre.

She didn't even try.

And the uploading of the costs associated with maintaining the eastern Gardner is a "win" only if one pretends there wasn't another option: tearing it down altogether.
Click to expand...
Honestly? No one was going to tear down the Gardiner. We will have to wait 4 decades from now to even consider it.

I am interested to hear that they’re talking about moving the parking lot from underground to Exhibition? That’s a win (financially) at least?
 
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