[DavidH]

Given we are going to need Presto cards next year to use GO (at least those of us who at least keep a 10-ride card in the wallet), then being able to use in subway stations will cut down on all those pesky tokens.

Word is that there is no plan to eliminate any current GO fare media. Obviously, it will happen at some point, but you should be able to keep your 10 ride cards next year if you want to.

 

[DavidH]

Most of us expect that at some point either Metrolinx will cave and fully or partially fund Presto's rollout across the TTC, or it will twist the TTC's arm into installing them by blocking financing for something else until they comply. One thing that ought to be interesting is watching what sort of fare collection is supported on the first Transit City lines, because Metrolinx will hold be the notional owner and have a degree of operational shot-calling power.

They have already done this. The Minister of Transportation has sent transit systems a letter saying the implementation of Presto is a requirement for new projects. What is unclear, at least to me, is whether this requirement requires a systemwide implementation or just on the new lines.

 

[rbt]

The hangup is that the TTC has indicated it will only install RFID readers in its turnstiles and on its surface fleet if someone else wants to pay for it. This is in stark contrast to the rest of the GTHA transit systems--which, to be fair, have fewer vehicles to outfit and less already invested in fare collection infrastructure.

Entirely appropriate. The $500M of things cut a few days ago from the capital budget over the next 10 years are quite a bit more important than a new fare mechanism. The current one is functional enough.

For the city to pay for it they would need to cut back on service due to reducing bus, subway car, or LRT orders; OR take on higher property tax rates.


Personally, I would like to see Presto popularized by being our new toll media for the province and the TTC forced onboard by enticing them with a cut of the road toll funds.

 

[nfitz]

Word is that there is no plan to eliminate any current GO fare media. Obviously, it will happen at some point, but you should be able to keep your 10 ride cards next year if you want to.

The sooner I can get rid of the $@#% things the better! Getting the stupid things to validate can be a nightmare. Some of the machines are quite difficult to validate the best quality ticket, and it only takes a bit of bending (often caused by repeatedly trying to get them to validate) for it to become nigh impossible to validate ... which is extremely frustrating when you are standing there with the once-per-hour train arriving, and a ticket that won't validate!

 

[SGHA504]

The sooner I can get rid of the $@#% things the better! Getting the stupid things to validate can be a nightmare.

PRESTO will replace GO's current ticketing system completely, once it is rolled out across the entire GO network (including bus and rail).

 

[DavidH]

PRESTO will replace GO's current ticketing system completely, once it is rolled out across the entire GO network (including bus and rail).

At some point, I agree, but no date has been set yet.

 

[Second_in_pie]

Nope, totally different technologies. You can no more get a Presto card to work with a normal TTC turnstile than you can get a key to open a combination lock.

---Explanation---

(I may in fact be oversimplifying... there could, for instance, be separate identifiers for adult metropasses versus the discounted ones that get logged by the turnstiles for statistical purposes, and rather than a monthly code that needs to be changed, the turnstiles might have an automatic internal calendar that checks against a date written into the card's strip, which would presumably cut down on the amount of physical fiddling with them. AFAIK the TTC doesn't ever really talk about the precise functionality of this stuff, for obviousish reasons.)[/I]

Ah, I was thinking about that today (actually, it haunted me all day.) Well in that case, a systematic approach would make sense, starting at the major intersystem station and then working out from there.

 

[Platform 27]

Entirely appropriate. The $500M of things cut a few days ago from the capital budget over the next 10 years are quite a bit more important than a new fare mechanism. The current one is functional enough.

For the city to pay for it they would need to cut back on service due to reducing bus, subway car, or LRT orders; OR take on higher property tax rates.

I'm sorry, but the TTC (and the wider Toronto transit-advocacy community) has an "if-it-ain't-broke" fetish. I swear an ICTS train ran over someone's puppy at some point. There's a pervasive attitude out there that transit technology peaked in 1970 and any and all attempts to improve on that are doomed to provide poor value for money. Just build more H6 cars and make sure they're painted maroon and all will be well.

"The current one is functional enough" was used to justify no significant improvements in signalling or moves to ATO for the last two decades. "The current one is functional enough" explains why for the last ten years you can call a bus check number out in the sticks but not here. "The current one is functional enough" was the justification for that monstrosity of a website.

If the estimates of $1000/unit upthread were in the right ballpark, we're talking in the order of a one-time $5m expense to roll this out across Toronto. Now, far be it for me to treat $5m like chump change, but that is a comparatively small drop in the TTC bucket, especially if you amortize over 10 years.

Even though its system is completely geographically isolated, OC Transpo has decided buying into Presto is a good value-for-money proposition. It makes the system more attractive to potential riders, and saves money otherwise spent servicing 20-year-old ticket machines and counting quarters. The savings related to counterfeiting are also significant--I mean, how much has the TTC already justified spending on slapping holograms on metropasses because this will somehow be recouped by savings? (Aside: seriously, who thinks that a TTC ticket collector is going to be able to spot a missing hologram through someone's fingers two turnstiles away, leave the booth, and chase them down?)

The TTC honestly reminds me a bit of the United States and the metric system. They're the biggest and the best and don't spend too much time thinking about the backwards pygmies beyond their borders. If anyone deigns to visit them, let them worry about converting to archaic practices rather than changing anything here.

 

[rbt]

If the estimates of $1000/unit upthread were in the right ballpark, we're talking in the order of a one-time $5m expense to roll this out across Toronto. Now, far be it for me to treat $5m like chump change, but that is a comparatively small drop in the TTC bucket, especially if you amortize over 10 years.

I'm very happy you are not one of my project managers. There are lots of cities that have rolled out this type of system and have actual incurred costs you can use to base estimates on.

I would guess building a reliable network/central DB without a single point of failure will be, by far, the most expensive components.

In fact, if they a distributed, synchronous replicated, DB on Oracle with full logging of over 2000 events per second (headroom growth/surges should probably allow for 4000), they can expect more than $5M per year in licencing costs for the database software on those machines.

 

[Platform 27]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but at no point have we heard anything about the operating costs for the backoffice end of Presto being downloaded to the participating agencies. All indications are that Metrolinx, i.e. the provincial treasury, is already going to be incurring whatever needs to be spent to build and operate a centralized Db, one which has been specced from the outset to be capable of handling the TTC.

Is it possible for Presto to grow into a monstrous ever-expanding waste of the province's tax dollars? Sure. Is this any of the TTC's business? No.

 

[ShonTron]

I totally agree on the need for a smartcard. Especially after using the gold standard of smartcards last year in Hong Kong.

There is some merit to "low-tech" or "no-tech" solutions, though. The TTC was able to avoid the problems that other cities had with their first generation fare machines, the ones that count change and you feed tickets (and until 13 years ago, $2 bills) into. But now that there's a (oft-delayed) smart card coming, you'd think the TTC would jump at it.

The TTC really has a "not-invented here" problem. Steve Munro even laments this one. The TTC can be astonishly quick on some things (1992-3 replacement of all roll signs with flip-dots, removal of "walk left/stand right" signs, automated announcements in buses), but slow or unwilling to do other things.

GO's system is falling apart. A new system is needed. The GFI machines in the suburbs are past their best-before dates. I am really hopeful a fare card will allow major changes in the fare structure across the region. GO's fare structure hasn't made sense as soon as they started routes that don't end in Union Station.

My problem with Presto is that's a mini eHealth-type issue. Consultants delivering little for all the money we're pouring into it.

 

[Swarley]

If the estimates of $1000/unit upthread were in the right ballpark, we're talking in the order of a one-time $5m expense to roll this out across Toronto. Now, far be it for me to treat $5m like chump change, but that is a comparatively small drop in the TTC bucket, especially if you amortize over 10 years.

Not disagreeing with your assertion that the TTC has spent too long hanging on to "what works", but your estimate must be at least 20x too low.

 

[Paleo]

If the estimates of $1000/unit upthread were in the right ballpark, we're talking in the order of a one-time $5m expense to roll this out across Toronto. Now, far be it for me to treat $5m like chump change, but that is a comparatively small drop in the TTC bucket, especially if you amortize over 10 years.

I suspect the RFID readers themselves would be the smallest part of the task. Designing the whole system and backend and retrofitting them into the fleet and stations I can't imagine being as cheap as $1,000 per unit.

 

[DavidH]

I suspect the RFID readers themselves would be the smallest part of the task. Designing the whole system and backend and retrofitting them into the fleet and stations I can't imagine being as cheap as $1,000 per unit.

There is no need to "design" a system; it's already been done. However, as you point out, installation costs are significant. For stations, you have to look at trenching power and communications lines to each reader, for example - GO has been doing considerable design work for each station and contracting out the work.

 

[SunriseChampion]

The sooner I can get rid of the $@#% things the better! Getting the stupid things to validate can be a nightmare. Some of the machines are quite difficult to validate the best quality ticket, and it only takes a bit of bending (often caused by repeatedly trying to get them to validate) for it to become nigh impossible to validate ... which is extremely frustrating when you are standing there with the once-per-hour train arriving, and a ticket that won't validate!

Um, you're doing it wrong.

Just joshin'....but it really seems like you're exaggerating. I know they can be a bit of a bitch once in a while but they're hardly a disaster. At least in my humble opinion and experience.