[Paleo]

There is no need to "design" a system; it's already been done. However, as you point out, installation costs are significant. For stations, you have to look at trenching power and communications lines to each reader, for example - GO has been doing considerable design work for each station and contracting out the work.

That's what I was referring to with the "design" comment. Sorry if I was not clear. I figure to do the communications and power for the readers on each vehicle would require taking apart the vehicle to run the wires and as you mentioned, work at stations may end up requiring excavation. That would make the $1,000 per reader seem cheap in comparison.

 

[Ed Drass]

Reading between the news stories

Looks like the Post followed the star.ca story, without much more detail. A lot of questions arise...

Can we deduce that the TTC estimates it is losing $3M a year due to fake tokens and passes?

I don't recall any report on this, nor authorization for the expenditure.
Where is the modelling of dwell times? (My first encounter with swipe/slide fare cards on a Chicago surface route had a fellow trying out the sheaf of cards he had found on the ground or wherever. It took a while. Chicago has contactless now.)

Who says operators will challenge bogus fares any more than they do now, just because the machine beeps? Do beeps perhaps dissuade shy fare-evaders?

Only $1.5 million? Seems low -- must be super-basic technology. (Adds fuel to the criticism of the TTC's smart-card cost projections of $200-400M)

-ed
---
TTC steps up fight against fake passes and tokens

Published On Fri Oct 30 2009

Tess Kalinowski

transportation reporter

The TTC is installing new fraud detection devices in all its vehicle fare boxes and station turnstiles later next year to weed out fake passes and tokens.

The latest weapon in the TTC's battle against fraud, the new devices emit a beep and drop fake tokens into a dispenser. Fare boxes will still have a slot for tickets and cash.

The $1.5 million investment is expected to pay for itself in about six months, according to TTC chair Adam ...

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/718920--ttc-steps-up-fight-against-fake-passes-and-tokens

 

[SGHA504]

It's not "world class neurosis" to want electronic fares but a rational desire to improve and progress. The system of getting on a bus taking a transfer for proof of payment so you can walk into a station like Runnymede, then either wait in line to show the transfer to the fare collector or awkwardly squeeze by someone who's paying can be eliminated. How about being able to be fares online? No more short changing on buses with "throw a lot of small coins so the driver doesn't notice" method. Metropasses that you can buy from one part of the month to the other? There are a variety of convenience and efficiency improvements this would result in.

Then there's the matter of station fare collectors, who can be retrained to do other tasks in the system where more staff is clearly needed, like maybe making subway trains look less like recycling depots.

Think of the possibilities.

Another benefit to the implementation of the presto/smart card/RFID system is that transit agencies are able to pinpoint exactly where riders board vehicles. The TTC would be able to determine that X amount of riders boarded bus route A at a certain stop whereas X-100 riders boarded bus route B at the same time. Knowing these types of statistics helps identify the need for increased or drecreased service on routes through the course of a service day. The benefit comes to the transit agency, in that they can streamline operations based on this data, and to the rider, who would experience more tactical route planning, in theory.

 

[nfitz]

Problem is, TTC seems to keep fixing the $1-million or so problem. First the new tokens, then getting rid of tickets, then the new passes, and now with having to swipe.

If they keep spending $5-million every year to fix a $1-million problem that just keeps moving somewhere else, I fail to see how we are gaining!

 

[GenerationW]

So what if one of these machines spits out a token purchased from a legitimate TTC vendor? S.O.L.??

 

[DavidH]

Quick note: Presto field testing begins today for GO Transit. Not only are the 500 invited members of the public using Presto at Oakville, Bronte, and Union, but GO/Presto staff will also be testing against a wide set of use cases.

 

[Platform 27]

From here:

Oakville and Bronte GO Train customers can tap into PRESTO!

PRESTO is an easy to use fare card that will allow users to travel on and between multiple transit systems with a simple tap of a card. The Government of Ontario is developing the PRESTO fare system with GO Transit, eight municipal transit systems in the Greater Toronto and Hamilton Area, and Ottawa.

The first phase of the PRESTO rollout will involve select customers who travel between Oakville or Bronte GO Stations and Union Station; use Oakville Transit bus routes 22, 32 or 110; or take the TTC subway, or the Harbourfront or Spadina streetcar, from inside Union Station. To find out more, pick up a brochure at the PRESTO counter at Oakville or Bronte GO Stations or download a PDF version of the brochure.

With PRESTO, a fare is deducted from your card each time you travel. This will be a change if you’ve traditionally used GO monthly passes. There is a built-in loyalty program with PRESTO and GO riders will receive fare discounts based upon the number of rides taken and the value of the fares accumulated within the calendar month.

PRESTO users can enjoy many benefits including being able to load money onto their card’s e-purse by phone, online or in person. Registered PRESTO cards can be replaced and the value restored if it is ever lost or stolen. Plus, registered PRESTO cardholders are eligible for the federal public transit tax credit, provided the card is used for at least 32 one-way trips within a calendar month on an individual system. For more information about PRESTO, please visit www.prestocard.ca.

Two minor newsbits in that: One, looks like the aforementioned "10 Oakville buses" are going to on those three routes. Two, I think that's the first word that 32 rides/month has been established as a floor to count for a tax credit. (51 ride/month Metropass users, you may roll your eyes now.)

 

[hbl33]

From here:

Two minor newsbits in that: One, looks like the aforementioned "10 Oakville buses" are going to on those three routes. Two, I think that's the first word that 32 rides/month has been established as a floor to count for a tax credit. (51 ride/month Metropass users, you may roll your eyes now.)

DAMN THAT IS A BAD NEWS FOR ME!

I use my GO monthly pass (which it reads 20-02 [Square One - Union]) not only to travel between Union and Sq. 1 but from York U/Yorkdale/York Mills/Finch and even Richmond Hill to Sq. 1 as well. If Presto is in effect throughout GTA, I lose these free-rides!

 

[Swarley]

Well I think when they fully roll out the system you will be able to put a monthly pass on the card - getting rid of them would be lunacy.

 

[DavidH]

Well I think when they fully roll out the system you will be able to put a monthly pass on the card - getting rid of them would be lunacy.

Nope, GO will be getting rid of monthly passes with Presto. However, they will give you increasing discounts as you ride more per month. So on one hand, no free rides in some cases, but on the other hand, you'll be able do "extra" rides to destinations that are not on your normal trip and get the discount.

 

[hbl33]

Nope, GO will be getting rid of monthly passes with Presto. However, they will give you increasing discounts as you ride more per month. So on one hand, no free rides in some cases, but on the other hand, you'll be able do "extra" rides to destinations that are not on your normal trip and get the discount.

That sounds more "expensive" to me than its present state right now.

 

[DavidH]

That sounds more "expensive" to me than its present state right now.

I haven't seen specific fare details but my understanding is the intent is to keep it neutral for most users. We'll see whether that is achieved.

 

[SGHA504]

I haven't seen specific fare details but my understanding is the intent is to keep it neutral for most users. We'll see whether that is achieved.

GO will be posting the details surrounding their discount program towards the end of the month on their website. PRESTO doesn't affect or set transit fares, its simply a means of payment.

 

[RedRocket191]

The benefits of these "virtual monthly passes" are that you don't have to worry about how many trips you will make in a month.

Last month I underestimated, didn't get a monthly pass, and ended up overpaying.

Also, what if I don't have a $100 or $200 lump sum to drop on a monthly pass at the start of the month? Should I be punished with higher cash/token fares because I'm barely making ends meet?

I see progressive discounts as a way of having our cake and eating it too. It extends the benefits of a monthly pass without forcing people to pay up front.

 

[DavidH]

The benefits of these "virtual monthly passes" are that you don't have to worry about how many trips you will make in a month.

It also eliminates an inequity in the current GO system, which is that the $200 or so for a monthly pass gives you absolutely no consideration if you, on one day, need to take a ride to a different destination. I may have "free" rides to Finch paid for as part of my monthly pas, but forget it if I need to go to Union.

With progressive discounts, all trips apply for the discount, so it introduces considerably more flexibility into the system. This will become increasingly important as GO moves out of the purely commuter segment.