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Also this, for your headdesk of the day:

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stanko said:
Do the PRESTO readers on the TTC have NFC capability? I'm asking because Apple Pay supposedly will be supported
Click to expand...

I don't think Apple Pay will be supported anytime soon. It's complicated for two reasons:

1. Storing the balance on the card means that if you use your phone for Presto, you can't use a physical card. Or at the very least, you can't have the physical card and the phone - you'd have to keep them as two separate Presto cards.

2. As far as I know, Apple Pay doesn't support the balance storage that Presto would require.
 
amnesiajune said:
I don't think Apple Pay will be supported anytime soon. It's complicated for two reasons:

1. Storing the balance on the card means that if you use your phone for Presto, you can't use a physical card. Or at the very least, you can't have the physical card and the phone - you'd have to keep them as two separate Presto cards.

2. As far as I know, Apple Pay doesn't support the balance storage that Presto would require.
Click to expand...

It supports a transit card in Japan called Suica, see here https://support.apple.com/en-ca/HT207155 and https://support.apple.com/en-ca/HT207154

This is a recent development. As far as I can tell, Suica on Apple Pay works very similarly to how Presto would work.

1. As you said, yes, if you set up the card on the phone, it invalidates the card, you can only use one or the other, or you'd need to separate cards. Not an issue to me--I think most people would want one or the other.

2. Per Suica being supported, it seems that it does support balance storage.

Apple Pay appears 100% ready for Presto. Metrolinx doesn't appear meaningfully interested in moving forward with modern technological solutions like Apple Pay, though, despite how often they tweet to customers that they are.
 
amnesiajune said:
I don't think Apple Pay will be supported anytime soon. It's complicated for two reasons:

1. Storing the balance on the card means that if you use your phone for Presto, you can't use a physical card. Or at the very least, you can't have the physical card and the phone - you'd have to keep them as two separate Presto cards.

2. As far as I know, Apple Pay doesn't support the balance storage that Presto would require.
Click to expand...
I think what they ment is can they use apple pay for a one time payment say to just pay a TTC fare.
 
According to Chris Upfold, from yesterday's TTC meeting, they're aiming to make payments by credit, debit, apple pay, etc on Presto devices possible for the adult cash fare, probably in late 2017 or 2018.

This would probably work for station-based readers, which can have a permanent network connection. For vehicle-based readers, they would need a fast highly-reliable data connection, which could still be too slow vs Presto cards.
 
brainfreezed said:
This would probably work for station-based readers, which can have a permanent network connection. For vehicle-based readers, they would need a fast highly-reliable data connection, which could still be too slow vs Presto cards.
Click to expand...

LTE is workable for this kind of thing. A round trip to the central server, including authorization at the bank, could be done in 1/10th of a second most of the time.

That said, since the majority of trips involve a transfer you don't even need to do all of the steps. Confirm the card is valid at the first vehicle and let the customer go, have it push to the server for actual authorization a bit later. If authorization fails, push a black-list addition for that card to all devices. The customer will not be able to exit the subway (as tap-outs will be required) or transfer to another vehicle with that card.

A hybrid would be appropriate. Shoot for doing the full thing in say 1/3rd of a second, and if there is a communications issue then fallback to the second mechanism I describe which gives the customer the benefit of the doubt.

If you push a whitelist to all devices too (cards known to have authorized in the past) then after about 1 week 95% of taps wouldn't require real-time network communication/authorization.

I don't know what Accenture will actually implement but no doubt it'll have numerous issues and be inconsistent for several years.
 
brainfreezed said:
According to Chris Upfold, from yesterday's TTC meeting, they're aiming to make payments by credit, debit, apple pay, etc on Presto devices possible for the adult cash fare, probably in late 2017 or 2018.

This would probably work for station-based readers, which can have a permanent network connection. For vehicle-based readers, they would need a fast highly-reliable data connection, which could still be too slow vs Presto cards.
Click to expand...

They already have this on all LFLRVs--the Single-Ride Vending Machines take tap debit/credit for cash fare purchases. They have a network connection, and from what I've seen with other people using it, it seems to work well. In places like the tunnel between Queen's Quay Station and Union, the debit/credit option is greyed out on the screens, however in that case there is a machine in Queen's Quay Station proper where there is cellular coverage.
 
After hearing about ApplePay working for some people, I took the hit and tried it. Didn't work going up Spadina but it did on the way back. $3.25 cash payment.

My question is, will a fare inspector be able to verify my payment? ApplePay generates a new card number for each transaction.

Worse case scenario, I'm stopped by an inspector who can't verify my payment but upon further review (my bank statement), I have evidence that my fare was paid.

I'm not going to stop carrying a PRESTO card when I expect to travel because I'd rather pay the lower PRESTO fare but my Watch or iPhone are a good backup if I wander off farther than expected and want to take the TTC home.

In the long run, I hope that PRESTO joins other transit payment systems like Oyster and Suica to become officially supported as an ApplePay card so that physical cards are no longer necessary.
 
MetroMan said:
After hearing about ApplePay working for some people, I took the hit and tried it. Didn't work going up Spadina but it did on the way back. $3.25 cash payment.

My question is, will a fare inspector be able to verify my payment? ApplePay generates a new card number for each transaction.

Worse case scenario, I'm stopped by an inspector who can't verify my payment but upon further review (my bank statement), I have evidence that my fare was paid.

I'm not going to stop carrying a PRESTO card when I expect to travel because I'd rather pay the lower PRESTO fare but my Watch or iPhone are a good backup if I wander off farther than expected and want to take the TTC home.

In the long run, I hope that PRESTO joins other transit payment systems like Oyster and Suica to become officially supported as an ApplePay card so that physical cards are no longer necessary.
Click to expand...

Forget ApplePay - Presto couldn't even be bothered to create an app in mobile space even though it's the default since what, 2010? I guess they might get around to it when everyone else had moved into direct neural interface in 2030.

AoD
 
MetroMan said:
Worse case scenario, I'm stopped by an inspector who can't verify my payment but upon further review (my bank statement), I have evidence that my fare was paid.
Click to expand...

You have evidence a fare was paid but not that it was that current trip or even a trip for yourself. But, they'd probably let you off with a warning and ask you not to do that.
 
rbt said:
You have evidence a fare was paid but not that it was that current trip or even a trip for yourself. But, they'd probably let you off with a warning and ask you not to do that.
Click to expand...

How do you figure that? The transaction is time stamped, demonstrating that it was for the current trip. The TTC's own record will show that transaction originating from that vehicle. Unless someone else is travelling without a fare, then every other fare will be accounted for, just like if I used a PRESTO card.

That said, unless ApplePay is officially supported, it's not going to allow for transfers and seeing that it'll be charged as a debit/credit transaction, it'll be priced as a cash fare which is more than paying a PRESTO fare. As I said, it's a convenience but regular riders are better off travelling with a PRESTO card until virtual cards are supported.
 
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